I dont know why you feel the need to explain yourself to these people. It's like Israel and the world, it makes no difference what you say, they still hate us/you. You shoudn't upset yourself on a fast day, it's not worth it on any day. You'll soon have a croissant and coffee as they've been doing all day ..lol

So next time before you get angry (which is a big Chilul HaShem) and write angry messages that may make other people angry or insulted, it's better to take a deep breath and rebuke someone only AND ONLY IF it comes from Ahavat Israel. Meaning that you are rebuking someone, but they know you're doing it out of love for that individual. Hope I'm not sounding like I'm preaching or patronizing, but I can feel the passion in the way you speak as much as I can feel the blatant anger. Most Sages in our tradition equal anger to idolatry. Next time take a chill pill first, write later. And also, you could do some work and get rid of assumptions. There are tons of non Jews called Ariel all over the world and nobody knows who authored that letter. Of course it could be a Jew!

The lack of historical knowledge often leads to mistakes that could have been avoided. The Jewish religious society, does not differ from any religious society which existed in the past or today in any country. Today the main legal problems of Israeli society are related to decisions that were left to be taken by the Rabbinate (marriages, divorces, kashrut, conversions). There are many sects (from Bnei Akiva to Satmar, passing by Gur, Bletz, Lubavich just to name a few) that do not accept religious legal decisions of each other. This is a small sample of what happens on a large scale in the Muslim world dominated by religion. As religion is a matter of faith, to impose your idea to others becomes a priority if you want to dominate the country. that is what Hamas Hezzbolah do. In the Middle Ages with the Catholics was not too different and can bring you countless examples. That said, I hope you understand that it is important to separate the state from religion, THING THAT MOST DEVELOPED COUNTRIES already understand for more than 600 years. The results are there to be felt. Where are the best hospitals and doctors? Where are the best universities? where people have more freedom? Only in democratic countries where religion does not dominate .. As for Israel, he is the only Jewish country in the world. He must have a secular constitution with a Jewish background (Hebrew language, Jewish holidays, etc.) and each person must respect the religion as he wishes. For example Yom Kippur is a national holiday, but if someone wants to drive and not fast is an option to him and he does not have to be condemned for it. I hope I make clear my point , and if you do not agree with me i hope you show me why...

I am not independANT Thinker, so I won't pretend to be answering for him. However, I would like share my understanding of how life in Israel would be if it were to function along the Orthodox Jews' system. You are right in your concern that the different sects would disagree with one another. It's inevitable. However, the fundamentals of their laws are the same. Because of this reason the different parties would be able to find a middle ground between them, especially in legal matters. The main thing to remember is that the different sects, though they may disagree with each other, do accept the other groups as relevant and reliable in their decisions. With regards to their level of "chumrah" )making sure to follow the halacha down to the most minute possibility) is the area where the parties disagree. But just as the Supreme Court which now reigns in Israel, has their differences but come to a joint decision, the rabbinate would be able to do so in the same form. The Jewish religion, in no way, impedes in the functioning of the citizens, in fact, it would seem that capitalism is the favored way of the Torah (I do not wish to get into it but the very fact that the Torah demands giving to the poor a certain amount and expects Jews to work seems to point that way; In any case I will not elaborate more on it. You can do the research yourself, if you like) My point is that I believe the OJ government wouldn't be as bad as you seem to think. I agree that at the current time Israel and the world is not ready for Israel to follow the Orthodox Jewish Law completely. For that, I believe we will need to wait until the Messiah comes. So driving on Yom Kippur etc. I agree that it must be allowed, but only in the places where the majority of the population is not Orthodox.

I show you why by asking you why. What do you mean by "most developed countries"?What do you think a "most developed"country can achieve for itself? Material development?That's what you mean? Well,than let's all be like China: a consumist communism.They are very "developed"and they are in the way to become more. Give other examples on what you mean by "developed". No human being can breath for too long without his/her soul being fed,Ariel. Evangelics,Catholics,Muslims,all of them stick on Jews to breath, and then they transform their breathing into the domination of their lucrative "flock". But their source is us,Jews. Without Jews,they can not breath out nothing new;nothing made by themselves.They live by parasitesing Jews. Only Jews are able to construct a developed society based in true religious values.And by religious I include humanistic values. Doubt me? Even European concept of kingdomship comes from the Jewish concept ,comes from a copy from Salomon Kindomship. All is a Jewish bad made copy. Your reasoning Ariel is awfully similar of Evangelic "reasoning",to whom the "rabbinic Judaism"deny their JC. "Rabbinic Judaism" bothers them,because that impedes them to replace those whom they believe had lost the right to be the Chosen when they denied JC,so for them "rabbinic Judaism"is a farse that must be dismantled in order for them to receive their god ,who they believe will come to rule over * them*,the true “jews” and not us,Jews.That’s their doctrine. You are not reasoning cleverly,Ariel. Are you Jewish,by the way?Mommy,Daddy,Saba,Savta...are all Jews? Just curious.

I hate to be judgmental but I feel that you are the one lacking knowledge of history. For one, the world has never dealt with such a situation as Israel. Nor have they attacked another country as they do Israel. Fact of the matter is, Israel has been running around, kissing the toes of everyone else, when they in fact, do not have to. What would I do about Jerusalem? I would keep it, and I wouldn't care about world opinion. Yes, I believe that Israel can survive, and thrive, without the help of the world. True, it's always nice to have them on our side, but that's never lasted long, has it? (Just look at Jewish history) In fact, I would start putting the pressure on those "poor palestinians" specifically their leaders, and possibly just reclaim the land we gave them so stupidly. You will call me deluded, but it will work for the best. In the current position that Israel is in, they are dealing with an unreasonable other side, though it is Israel has the power to decide what the final say is.

I would start saying I am a Jew accepted by all kinds of orthodoxy (my parents and grandparents are Jews of Syrian origin). That said I would do an exercise of thought to Mr. OJ. Let us suppose that the supreme court was predominantly of the sect of Gur, and they said that all Jews have to use SHTREIMEL and white socks to the knees (this is what they require for those who want to live in their midst). I think I made my point clear that a sect of Judaism does not accept the other. Now for Keren. Below is an example of rabbinic wisdom that you cherish so much So, too, is it with the course of its rising and setting (Pesachim 94b): "The sages of Israel say, 'During the day the sun travels beneath the heaven and at night above the heaven." In tractate Bava Batra 25a, R' Eliezer and R' Joshua disagree about its precise course: "R' Eliezer said the world is like a porch [with three walls and with no wall on its northern side]. The north wind does not turn [the sun does not pass through the northern side of the world] and when the sun reaches the northwest corner it bends and rises above the heaven [and continues its orbit eastward in the heaven]. R' Joshua said the world is like a cube [closed on all sides] and the north wind turns. When the sun reaches the northwest corner it circles and comes back behind the dome [above the top of the heaven which prevents the rays of the sun from reaching the earth at night]."The sun passes through the thickness of the heavens through windows prepared for it: "Three hundred and sixty five windows did the holy One, blessed be He, create in the heavens. One hundred eighty three are in the east and one hundred eighty two are in the west. Some were created for the sun and some for the moon" (Shemot Rabbah [Vilna], parasha 15). Similarly in the Jerusalem Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 2:58a, "Three hundred and sixty five windows did the holy One, blessed be He, create to serve the world. One hundred eighty two are in the east and one hundred eighty two are in the west. One is in the center of the heaven, from which issued the start of the Creation" Chazal in Pesachim 94b bring the opinion of the gentile sages, stating that the sun at night is below the ground and not above the heaven. Rabbi brings proof for the opinion of the gentile sages: "Rabbi said: Their words seem more correct than ours, for during the day the springs are cool and at night they boil (when the sun warms them beneath the ground--Rashi). Rabbi Nathan said: During the summer the sun travels the height of the heaven, and therefore the whole world is warm while the springs are cool. During the winter the sun travels at the edges of the heavens and therefore the whole world is cool and the springs boil." So if you like this kind of nonsense i have more than 600 only copiyng the pages of guemara. But i know you from other talkbacks and I know you are radical in your ideas about the holyness of the Tora. So do me a favor and go live in mea shearim for a year or two (I'm sure you are bnei akiva) and see what will happen if religion will be in command

What rubbish, as if the government is paying for driving lessons, with what money exactly, most Haredim work and study, I'm Haredi I study and my wife works we receive no money from the government, nor do most people.

I'm still traditional, I used to go to a yeshivafor many years I did my license as i was in yeshiva in the US, I asked permission from the head Rabbi and it was ok. While in Israel the yeshiva's are more stricter but also more hypocrits... I do think it's indeed hypocritical to dissalow the students while Rabbi's to get to yeshiva by car. besides what is wrong using a car or loving cars, it's part of hobbies and is there anything wrong with hobbies? it was just 9 AV let's unite and love another without to impose on another rules. is that so difficult? :-) LOVE YOU ALL

This has nothing to do with history . For you , an armchair "zionist" who lives in galut , it's easy to talk , but you don't know i think , that there are people living in Jerusalem , Judea Samaria who don't want us to be there . what will you do with them ? Not care about world opinion ? LEARN history . Look only at what happened to South Africa , Lybia , and hopefully will happen to Iran

But the matter is far more complicated. YOU ARE RIGHT - other people's failures should not be in no way a reason for dropping out of Torah. Valid argument... But - and I hope you will never have a chance to see it - this argument is valid only in BIG GALUT KEHILOT. When you have a small kehila, which we here have, you will see that things are not that easy. Suffice to say: when we here have mignan, it is something truly worth remembering. There were few years when we did not have mignan for YOM KIPPOUR - and let that be the evidence to you of Nazi's and Communists' efficiency, as well as strong assimilation. Religious people here are very few and they, of course, have no choice but to stick together. And hence - their behavior affects all of members. Hence, if you get in quarrel with them, or you are not liked, you are kicked out of the circle - and you are on your own. Now add to that the frustration that you do and try and only have a laughter of "hilonim" - and you cannot go anywhere for support, add that the impossibility to seclude yourself because you are dependent on kosher food coming directly through kehila... You see that the argument "somebody else's sin is not your reason" is not that stable? The smaller the kehila, the more unstable this argument is. So, word of advice - when you, in Israel, judge about assimilation, take in consideration that assimilation in America is one thing and assimilation in Europe another. In America, you don't have to assimilate - you have, for example, 1600 brands of kosher wine in store in Manhattan. Here, for example, you have ONE brand of kosher wine and you had a MONTHLY RATIONS of wine... Kosher meat here is luxury that I see from time to time. Let me just tell you that I pay 6 slices of kosher turkey "ham" equivalent of 5 Euro. A bottle of wine is about 8 Euro. I am not kidding... You can say "Come to Israel!" True - but it also has problems. First, of course, is the language, and my job here is connected to language (no, I am not a computer programmer that I could come tomorrow :) ). Second is the job opportunities in Israel, costs of living etc. So, a mere religion is maybe a drive, but... ---------------------- Ah, yes, I forgot to say something about these 3 fellows on yeshiva: I think we do not know all the facts. I seriously doubt that rabbis in yeshiva are so unreasonable that they would not allow cars to people who need it to come and study. Also, I find it dubious that these guys live far from yeshiva - what are they doing on shabbat, staying home? Therefore, it is either: 1) The 3 guys were over their lines and went against the rules of yeshiva - in which yeshiva had a full rights to kick them out (besides, it is for their own good: maybe they do not, subconsciously, want to dedicate themselves to Torah 24/7 and the yeshiva does them a favor?) 2) The yeshiva had these guys in cross-hairs for previous sins and just waited for something bigger to kick them out.

Ashkenazim vs Mizrachim and Sefaredim ? That's only one [ voluntarely or out of IGNORANCE ] of your biaisedf arguments . As i said it before : you forgot to add "SH" before your "thinker" . But now you will of course remain silent as a grave you should be in

And I would start telling you to join an Evangelic Temple(or other of the likes) for a year or two ,where they are more in line to your thinking. Well,actually, they strive their best to snake into our sinagogues and in our midst to listen even to our Talmudic discussions,because it is from * our* intelectual and spiritual production that they get their life. But well,you can always follow dumbs to be dumber.That’s your choice. You may need to join them,or other goyim religious/intelectual encounters, to eventually find out who you are,since you seem lost in your heritage That said,I will tell you that Talmud is an intelectual exercise (high intelect included,as Chassidim will call Chochmah,Binah,Daat understanding,but we have other intellectual approuches in our body of wisdom).They are discussions and conclusions ;discussions and conclusions... We are not a People closed in one doctrine.We are a People IN SEARCH to our mission that is Tikun Olam. The Talmud belongs to a period,but Jews keep discussing and there is Jewish literature ,as no other people has ever produced ,available in the four corners of this world.The only thing is that our intelectual and spiritual products pos Talmud are not canonized,but our intelectual base is a chain starting in Avraham to our days. Now,if you keep confused,getting links from aleatory chains that do not belong to your heritage ,you will get to anywhere other than the vicious circle of your confusion and repetive annoying mantra. You can join “josh”,another Ynet “participant”.You seem very alike.

There is a minority of haredi who have some rules which seem crazy to anybody outside their inner circle but to them its logical. In the case of these students did they know they needed permission from the rabbi before learning to drive. If the answer is yes then they have nobody to blame but themselves because they knew the rules and chose to break them If they did not know in advance they needed permission from the rabbi then they should be entitled to appeal. Having rules like this is not wrong its the lifestyle CHOSEN by a minority of ultra orthodox.

I see by your response that you can not understand what I say. Find errors in the Talmud and throughout Jewish literature is not to say that Catholics, Muslims or any other religion is right. Except that in your view of the world (black and white) people or are in your favor or against you. Therefore I said to spend time in Mea Shearim. To understand how horrible it is living on a religious system upon which we disagree. Therefore, gives thanks to God for living in a country where the constitution is secular and you can be religious in the way that pleases you.

You didn't counterpoint any of my points nor have answered the questions I posed to you.

And, if you" find errors in the Talmud and throughout Jewish literature"the best place to discuss that would be with a Rabbi,since this is not an religious site. Pointing out "errors" in religious matters in a secular site is beyond negative,unless you utilized these "errors"to trigger positive discussions among a mainly secular and even gentile "audience". If you critize only for the sake of criticizing without positive answers and solutions,we can be indeed be compared to our enemies. Sorry to tell you.

Your answer is the best answer for those who do not have more arguments

and not more educated as years ago .

Charles, I won't claim to know how you in Israel feel. You are right. In my current state I am an "armchair zionist" as you called me. However, I must disagree with you about how history has nothing to do with it. History has everything to do with it! "Those that forget history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of history" (obviously paraphrased but the point remains the same) Honestly, I have a hard time believing that people living in Jerusalem don't want "us" to be there. Why are they living there then? However, I believe you. What would I do with them? Nothing. I don't need to worry about them. World opinion has only done so much. Even in SA, not much has really changed, as people I know have been there. For example, Goldstone ordered the "negroes" to be hanged and said the only way they (the negroes) learn is through force. (Do not mistaken me as racist, I call them black and I respect them as human in reality, I just used those words to give you the gist of what happened.) Like I said before, world opinion will not change by giving in to the demands of the nonsense spewed by the other side, as history has shown. And to bring back how the world views the Jews and thus Israel, I quote Leon Pinsker, who saw what the world really thinks:"... to the living the Jew is a corpse, to the native a foreigner, to the homesteader a vagrant, to the proprietary a beggar, to the poor an exploiter and a millionaire, to the patriot a man without a country, for all a hated rival." You know, I may be an outsider, but maybe you need to see what I see to make the right decisions. A chess player, as good as he may be, may not see what the spectator sees.

You can't believe that there are many people who don't want us in Jerusalem and why are they there . You wrote . You talk about a subject you don't know anything about . Those people who don't want us there , are those who lived there BEFORE 1967 , before our Capital was completely under Israeli control . Completely under our control , but Israelis don't go there to walk around so much . Some are living there , armed . World opinion and superpower "dictats" . Do you know that we have to OBEY the USA governement ? we could NOT export material to China , forbidden by your governement . Not to talk about the pressure put on our governement to make concessions , to facilitate the travel of those inhabitants , and so on . So before to talk , inform yourself . And again my question : what will you do with those Arabs who live in Jerusalem .

I'm sorry, I thought you meant Israeli's not enemies of the state. You're right. They don't want us there. I do not care and nor should the Israeli government. World opinion has been and will continue to be (until the messiah comes) the determination to destroy the Jews. (Overall. The US is a current exception and there are a few more.) The problem is that you still have the mind of a man dependent upon another. As mentioned in my first post to you, I believe that Israel can survive, and thrive, on its own. Israel has grown in its capabilities and has the resources to make it more of an exporter than an importer. Its technology is possibly the most advanced and is in high demand. Solar power and natural resources are the way of the future. This future is being led by Israel. The US is a superpower, no doubt, and Israel's biggest ally. It really is hard to lose such a supporter, but if they turn against Israel as Israel takes a stand, their true colors would be showing and it would not be a friend that Israel wants. You brought the trade with china as an example. The threat is that Israel would lose its funding from the states and the US support. But say they did not care about that, what would stop them? US military force? I'm sure we don't want a confrontation with America, but you know, if China really wants those weapons they'd be a pretty formidable opponent to America, and even more so with Israel alongside them. But let's not kid ourselves. America does not wish a war with Israel. So once again we return to your question with my answer. What would we do with Jerusalem? Nothing What about those Arabs? Nothing What about world opinion? Well, let's see. What is the current world opinion, in favor? The countless pictures, articles, and videos on the internet show that the world as a whole is against Israel. As a matter of fact, the number of resolutions against Israel by the UN is unprecedented and unbelievable. It comes down to this: You can't bring precedents from other nations as proof of what Israel should do as Israel's very existence and the hatred toward it are unprecedented. However, we can look at Israel's current capabilities and make choices from there. Finally, since Israel has been the target of unreasonable hatred and acts against it, it is time we forget about trying to please everyone and doing our best to show our spine and commitment to our survival. Remember that a woman in a brutal relationship with her husband will not stop the beatings by finding faults in herself.

What about those Arabs : nothing , you wrote . We see that you are not aware at all of the situation here . There are more than 100.000 Arabs living in and around Jerusalem , most of them don't want us . You think that you can ignore such a vast quantity of people ? Do you think that we can have a police officer behind everyone of them , to avoid terrorist acts ? We see that you have'nt to go to the IDF , nor your children or grand children . It's easy to talk then , and certainly when you don't know about what you talk . We have'nt to please everyone , but at least to try not to hurt them to much . Your comparison with a beaten woman : not related , but here again , your ignorance of history and facts is shown . WE have to take in account world's opinion . Don't doing it is being blind or worse , in your case , not want to know it . And here again , History can repeat itself My example was only one fact . And as you said it : the threat is that Israel would lose its funding and support [ by not obeying ] The USA can use the same threats every time they want it , every time they see it as their interests .

but I'm doing fine. I never said you don't watch these Arabs, but history has shown they do not want to compromise. The only compromise the do want is the death of the Jewish state. Giving land for peace was an idiotic idea to begin with, though it was a nice try. If it had worked, it would have been worth disbanding the Jewish state to give the Arabs the land so not a single Jew would have to be killed. But as luck would have it, they want us dead too. So don't give up any land, especially Jerusalem, and ignore their calls, but keep the peace. Pretty simple. On the contrary, my comparison of the beaten woman is very related. Israel is always trying to please the world. The world does not wish to be pleased with Israel and constantly attacks Israel. Israel then responds, "well, maybe we are doing this wrong, we'll fix it." The world leaves in a huff and then returns as soon as it can to attack Israel once again. Yes, we can ignore it. Not completely, obviously. We need to listen to what they're saying to protect ourselves, but we don't need to find fault in ourselves or take actions because the world wishes it. Hear what they say but take no action. Again we return to my point that I believe Israel can become self-dependent and not worry about America(should it come to that)

What will you do with those Arabs . That they don't want to compromise or not , is not important regarding my question . Beaten woman : you said that she tought she is at fault , now "Israelis tryiong to please the world" . We never said that we doing something wrong , In actions some made errors , that's all . Regarding your " ourselve" "we" can ... Not YOU , an armchair Zionist . You can only speak so when talking about YOUR country , and that's NOT MY country , Israel Becoming self dependant , without the support of any country ? Day dreams of an ignorant of history , sorry , but that's what i think about you .