Then kicking the Heradi off the dole will have minimal affect on them because so many are already educated and working.

If what you say tin the article is acurate, then what are the Haridi doing to dispel the stigma? How many are on the dole as opposed to how may are working? How about reducing the number of Kolel studnts to those who really are worthy fo such study? How about military or civilian service which are a requiremets of good citizan ship? Just show us the facts.

Congratulations Ynet for allowing this piece by Mr Gseid to put the record straight. As he says, it wont change the minds of people who want to believe otherwise, but any one walking through Bnei Brak for instance, can see the majority of shops and businesses run and served by Haredim, much more visible than the Haredim succeeding in Hi-tec. Again, we have the still controversial, but high-performing Haredi units of our arm if we want to look.

I am impressed that YNet allowed this article to be printed - thank you! What the readership must get into their heads is that times are changing, and the hareidim are changing alongside the times. This does not mean that they are less loyal to the Torah; it means that when the reality is that in order to put bread on the table, the vast majority of hareidim will leave the confines of the kollelim to make a livelihood. Of course there are always going to be those who expect a "free ride" but also in the secular community there are those types too. To be honest, I couldn't survive on this "free ride" in any case, because we are talking about a pittance in "handouts". Regarding the education system, all my sons studied in a mainstream "cheder"; they all learned the "3 R's - reading, (w)riting and (a)rithmetic. They did not learn English in school (although the girls do - btw - the girls learn a full secular syllabus). All my sons learned English privately, read papers, know what's going on in the world, and will be more than able to learn a trade in far less than the amount of years dedicated to a profession in the secular system. I along with most parents I know, expect and plan to pay for our sons to take vocational courses when the time is ready for them to support their families.

If what you say is actually true about Chareidi educational institutions, then I am relieved. I am pleased that Ynet has allowed you the space to put your information and perspective forward. Now, just to clarify, don't you think we need a non-partisan educational committee to view what is actually occurring in Chareidi institutions and to report this to the appropriate Knesset committee along with recommendations about improving or altering the curriculums in Charedi schools if necessary? Such a report, if you are right (in general) and if the report were to be made public, would go a long way in modifying the secular and National Orthodox publics' opinions of the Charedim and their supposed lack of secular education. What do you say? As to Torah teaching, there is no doubt that it sharpens one's mind as can be viewed from the perspective of the 19th century Haskala when Jews, educated by the "pilpul" method and taught Torah by rebbes, were more than ready to take on the sciences and arts of the western Enlightenment. I have no doubt that the Charedim are well prepared, in terms of mind gymnastics, to do the jobs required in secular society and to contribute to the greater society. My question is: Will they take on this challenge or will they continue to reside in their ghettoized existence adding little or nothing to the greater good? What do you think? Incidentally, I am aware that an increasing number of Charedi youths are joining the IDF and that the IDF has become more adept at adapting to their (Charedi) special needs. You must understand that the rest of us Jews are pretty taxed and weary about having to protect the Charedim without any consequent contributions on their parts. What do you think? We also note that aside from the Lubavitchers and the Breslovers, who appear to extend themselves to us and without judgement of us, there appears to be no concern on the part of the greater Charedi community for the rest of Israeli citizens yet these same people benefit in many ways from the state. Do you have any comments or suggestions? Finally, most of us are plainly sickened by the traitor-like activities of the Edah Charedit yet we never hear them denounced nor criticized nor obstructed by the rest of the Charedi community amongst whom they reside. Why not? Naturally, we, the non-Charedi, are bound to opine that the rest of the Charedim go along with them. What is the real nature of the relationship between the Edah Charedit and the rest of the Charedi community? I would appreciate some clarification. Hopefully, you will read this and respond. Thank you.

As a 'ultra orthodox' professional who lives and has worked many years in Israel, I have spoken with so many seculars and the answer is always the same: The Seculars do NOT want to associate with Charadim. Why? Two reasons: 1. The are afraid! 2. They are prejudiced by the media. That is what my experience of 15 years of working amongst secular Israelis. Some have a tremendous hatred because of what they have read in the news, heard on the TV and radio, and in their social societies. People like these generally become accepting and friendly after they find out that charadim do not have "horns" growing out of their heads. But the other group that hates charadim will not change. They resent the fact that we believe in G-d and that our allegiance to Israel is tempered by Torah values. They feel intimidated by our observance of the very mitzvot that their own grandfathers so unwavering kept and they feel guilty that they don't and won't. They will not admit this, rather they use other arguments why religious are no good, but it boils down to "if I am right, then they are wrong". and they can not face it. They are guilty because they have abandoned their own family background and instead of seeing themselves as the black sheep prefer to cast the sin on others. It is so sad to see and deal with them.

The only interest the Haredim have in the state of Israel is to pilfer its treasury. That's why at least one or both Haredi parties are in every Israeli government, regardless of ideology, on the condition that they get to control the housing or welfare ministry. Most of them don't serve in the military or have any sense of loyalty to the state. They don't hold themselves morally or legally accountable for anything, even child abuse within their own community, and if someone else tries to solve those problems they start throwing rocks. On top of that they have a strangle-hold on conversions and religious affairs and bash fellow Jews from other sects for not being sufficiently Jewish. And that's just the nice ones; the not-so-nice ones throw stones if you come to the Kotel "improperly dressed" or stone your car if you drive during shabbat. But of course just because they don't drive on shabbat, doesn't mean they can't use it to hold a riot against someone who dares to "desecrate" the day of rest by opening a parking garage, apparently in that case violence is a mitzvah. May be I have it all wrong, maybe the Haredim are just misunderstood, but if they want other Jews to understand them maybe they should consider participating in the actual Hertzliya Conference, shopping at non-Haredi businesses, going to integrated schools, and generally integrate into Israeli society rather than looking down on other Jews like Midieval christians looked at them.

but rest assured that none of the talkbacks will say.."hmm very interesting maybe I need to re-examine .." more likely they will say "YEH BUT.... they dont wear OUR uniforms (which many of them do) THEY dont repsect OUR life choices.and THEY dont and THEY dont.." etc in

Response. Haredim, don't educate us.

Heck, I work in high-tech with many haredim, some of them FFB (frum from birth) and some of them tshuvers (born again religious). Lots of haredi women have degrees in computer science (albeit the North American ones did show their Israeli counterparts the example). I've been to Bnei Brak and Mea Shearim, and I know that most haredeim do indeed work for a living. However, (and here's the "but"), the fat cat haredi politicians many decades ago levered hundreds of millions of my tax money every year to keep haredi men out of the army and have these talmid chachams learn for a living. Once upon a time it was several hundred. Today, it's tens of thousands. That's the problem. That's my tax money paying for tens of thousands of able guys to sit and learn Torah for a living as if each and every one were a Torah scholar. They aren't, and Gsheid knows that (or should). We Jews did indeed pool our community resources to send the best and brightest to the top yeshivas, and they'd turn into our melamdim and community scholars and leaders. But there is no way that there are suddenly tens of thousands of Jews worthy of this. It's a political fact to shmear pockets, pad bank accounts, and keep this party or that in power. Nothing more. It has almost NOTHING to do with generating more Torah scholars. If Gsheid can fix that ugly problem and get more haredi units in the army, then we taxpayers and soldiers will see that all haredim are sharing in the burden of carrying this country and society. Sure haredim work, but my tax money is still paying for those tens of thousands who aren't, nor do they do miluim. And it's not just the seculars who resent it - it's the religious too.

The vast majority of haredim do not serve in the military or do national service of any kind. All they do is loaf off of the hard earned sheckle of the average Israeli worker; something the haredim in the diaspora never do. If the Haredi community is unwilling to serve their country economically, militarily, and in relation to education then it is in the interest of the State to advocate their emmigration. Since most of these people have no affinity for the State of Israel other then leaching off it this shouldn't be a big loss to them.

"They do not accept the rules of the game - equal work, equal pay and equal duties. They said, 'No, we have a special status in which we do not work and we do not pay taxes and we do not defend the country; you defend it for us,"

2... 3... don't mind me I am just counting the seconds until Avi will respond. 4... 5... 6... 7... 8... 9... 10... 11... 12..

I don't like jewish Ultra othodox, but we all know that already about livng on seculars backs, and people whine and none do a damn thing so until seculars will stop paying them money and they do nothing all day (they don't even study and everyone can appoint himself to be rabi) until than quite the whining, zip it, you want this issue solve stop paying them. simple as that.

in Israel they don't know second grade mathematics, just grab any native israeli ultra orthodox and you will be shocked, they can't even calculate what is 1/4+1/5

You let a little bit slip out. The picture you paint is a hopeful one for the day when we see the community obeying the "law six days you shall work". But thousands going to degrees should really be hundreds of thousand shouldn't it? Living in a cultic fashion doesn't mean that the people are monsters just oppressed. But lets face it huge families are rasied off of the secular wages in households where a large percentage of the heads of housholds spend their day in repetitive prayers even though teaching states you shall give G-d an orginial prayer. Seculars and the phrase "haredi stronghold" tell us that you view a them-against-us idiology. Don''t be upset that seculars find this rhetoric offensive and hop on board this imaginary battle ground created by leaders to help isolate these strongholds. Making them stronghold cages to teach things not found in Moses words of the whole and complete Torah he gave on that day stating "you shall not add a word nor take a way a word from what I give you today". Call it what it is. I love the people and I long for the day Let My People delivers us from such strongholds again.

When secular schools in Israel will start learning Torah and keeping mitzvot, hareidi children will start learning some of the required core curriculum. Quite shameful that children in a Jewish country know almost nothing about Jewish laws.

I am a baal teshuva and unfortunately I've put my children through bitter chareidi school experience, they were taught nothing that can ever be used later in life...

i would think twice about snubbing your nose at the haredim. in new york i know innumerable haredi multimilionaires. they are very hard working, meticulous and very socially interconnected. in short, they have everything necessary for success in business. ultimately, when enough of the israeli haredim build up enough capital to develop thriving businesses like they have in the US, then they will end up being FAR more sucessful than other israelis. in about 30 years, seculars will be complaining about how haredim own everything.

There have been some encouraging trends, but the labor-force participation rate is still NOWHERE NEAR where it should be, and more discouragingly far below the same haredi community outside of Israel. So spare me the "just look at the data"

Sorry, the author's selective evidence does not impress. Gsheid claims that "most" of the 100,000 students in the independent and religious education system study the entire core curriculum. I'd guess that most of *them* are not haredim. We also know, from reports this week, that several school inspectors (linked to Shas) have been falsifying reports about adherence to core curriculum standards, and that many schools are getting more funding than their level of core teaching merit. Gsheid can boast about the haredi businesses all he wants, but the overall figures don't lie. Haredi males (and Arab females) have such low levels of economic participation that even the OECD has taken note. The level of poverty in haredi communities doesn't smack of success. The criticism isn't just coming from seculars, or even traditionalists like me. It comes also from the Chief Rabbi of Britain, Jonathan Sacks, who knows more than a little about education, Jewish or otherwise. Finally, the author claims there is "nothing like studying the Talmud ... for sharpening one's mind." We don't sharpen knives only to have them sit unused in a drawer. Show us what your people can do.

I'm really tired of hearing the term 'racist.' Like the word 'Nazi,' it gets slung around all to often. I'm an Ashkenazi Jew. Most of your readers and most of the haredim are Ashkenazi Jews. So why are you calling people racist? Can we please have a discussion without anyone calling anyone else racist? Just once?

So you won't be needing my taxes anymore then? Brilliant, they can go to something worthwhile. And I can expect to be seeing your sons and daughters enlisting in the IDF, correct? And you'll stop telling me whom I can and can't marry? Come off it Menachem, until the haredim stop clinging to their primitive need for a sky pixie, they will continue to be objects of the contempt of reasonable people. We don't hate you, we are just fed up of supporting your hordes of offspring while you spew forth ridiculous vitriol and hatred of anyone that doesn't dress for Poland in the winter of 1870.

The point is not that they aren't studying the core curriculum. The reason for the secular outburst is that we literally pay the Haredim our tax money to build government run schools, provide them with social welfare, and then they do not serve in the military and riot unnecessarily violently by throwing stones at municipal workers or burning trash in the street to make their point known. The problem is that they leech off the state like a parasite to skin and then complain when all their demands are not met. When they pay taxes, serve in the military or in some form of national service, and refuse the welfare they receive from the taxes of everyone else, I will say fine, we will leave them alone. But until that day they remain open to criticism and subjected to the complaints of those who pay for their livelihoods. You are concerned about the completion of the study regarding the core curriculum in a government run school funded by tax payers money? I would hope that would at the very least be the thanks we deserve.

What about the statistics posted in various independent ynet articles (and in other places around the net) of 65% of Haredi males not working, 40% - 50% of Israeli Jewish below the poverty line are Haredi (despite them making up about 10% of the population), etc....are those numbers 'made up', resulting from stigma?

Well, I guess it was only a matter of time before someone saw the job opening for a Haredi superhero and spokesperson, and Mr. Gsheid has stepped forward to offer his services. He’s one of those people who sees the Haredim as misunderstood and downtrodden – but if you're going to speak for a nation, you have to look at the whole picture. I’m not going to applaud 75% of Haredim for sending their children to school to get an education – it’s a basic fundamental right of every child. I’m also not going to stand up and feign shock because there are Haredim with degrees – that’s not news either. As long as the ones with a basic education use it, and those with degrees go out and get a job, I couldn’t care less, infact I’m happy that they want to integrate and contribute in some way into society. But what about the ones burning garbage cans? What about the ones who riot and trash the streets of Jerusalem and Jaffa, over bones? What about the ones who critically injured a motorcyclist and his passenger? What about the ones who abuse their children and wives? What about the ones who set out to hurt as many of our soldiers and policeman as possible? I’m sure that a percentage of those also know how to add 1 +1. Their vile behavior across the country isn’t part of the curriculum that is taught in schools in Israel today. A Haredi who has earned a degree is apparently still able to take part in violent riots against the state. It’s not the education and it’s not the fact that they work – the fact is they don’t know how to behave as decent human beings that pisses the rest of us off. They want this country to become like Iran, they want control and they won’t stop until they get it. That’s got nothing to do with a state provided education, it has everything to do with having a warped perverted mind that simply won’t live and let live. Can seculars educate them? I would say that seculars most definitely can. Not necessarily academically, but behavior-wise and freedom of choice-wise. They need to be educated on so many levels about decent human behaviour. And with all his Mr. Gsheid's statistics, Haredim STILL make up the majority of spongers and shelppers who squeeze every last shekels that they can out of the State.

How many women attended that conference? Just curious.

Obviously you never attended school as you might just of learnt that we all have the right to our religious beliefs on not. I dont want my childrens head full of religious mumbe jumbo and to grow up without even the basic skills that would enable them to join the work force and earn a honest living. When the Charedi schools accept state funding they are obliged to accept the rules that come with it. If they want their own schools they can pay for it themselves. Seperate state from religion

I sincerely believe that Religious beliefs must be away from any education systems and the state business. As far as I can see these people do not have to work in Israel or serve in the army. If the news is correct, 53% of the pupils at the school age are going to religious schools in Israel. I graduated from a religious school in turkey. We can not exactly say that they are religious. It could be classed semi-religious and occupies only several percent of the total number of the schools. However, I can clearly see the damages that has been done to the turkish society by these schools. I think You must realize how dangerious they are and take actions before it is too late. You can not change their mind as god dictates, you can not criticize them as you are considered that you criticize the holy book. You can not do this. you can not do that. I just say GET LOST

daniel you completely missed the point of this article. u are exactly what that person is talking about. someone who knows NOTHING about the chareidi community but will never hesitate to slander all its members indiscriminately out of pure ignorance. please educate yourself by seeking out your local orthodox rabbi and asking him why we dont become non religious like the rest of israeli society. im sure his answer will be very interesting.