Don't the people of Israel have bigger problems to deal with than trying or forcing people to convert????? Or, is it that the country is being driven by a minority who demands that the newbies do it so they can be citizens??? If sucessful, maybe they could convert the mozzles into Christians >>>all without exceptions!!

"Many Orthodox Jews do not view the Reform and Conservative as their Jewish brethren." This is an out and out lie. Orthodox Jews don't consider reform or conservative to be legitimate views of Judaism. There are either religious or non religious Jews. Reform and Conservative Jews are irreligious but are considered Jews as long as their mother is Jewish. The conservative and reform movements created a split by allowing non Jews to masquerade as Jews by either converting them not according to halacha or by stating that a Jewish father makes the children Jewish. This created an issue where now a person claiming to be a reform or conservative Jew may now think they are jewish but they are really not because they didn’t go through the correct procedure. This is just like a person saying they are an American citizen because he wants to be an American and loves America but never goes through the process of citizenship. However, Any Jew born from a Jewish mother, no matter if he is religious or is not religious is considered by orthodox Jews as Jewish.

I'm so glad that I never waisted my time doing it "their way(s)". When the shaliach rabbi of the Israeli beth-din said to my there's only one type of orthodox system, I almost fell of my chair in surprise. I knew it was totally politically based and had nothing to do with faith. Wolfs in sheep clothing. The perfect place for crocked people to hide. Don't go there, you can't win. They change the rules as you play but only in their favour and will make your life miserable. This is the only religion where one could be as observant as a saint but I'm your moms not Jewish or they don't like your rabbi you can't get married or buried. Good luck.

The law of return states that one must be Jewish to be allowed to immigrate to Israel, but we still can't decide who is Jewish, after more than 60 years of Israel being in existence?

If Mother is Jewish then you are Jewish. No matter what you do, Buddism, reformism, marxism, or anything else like Beilinism, or Obamism, or reconstructivism, or nudism.

it used to be that conservatives and reform were jewishly identified, just not religious. nowadays, if you walk into a reform temple MOST of the people there are not jewish. The Enlish goy who was the head of my office goes to a reform temple along with his non-jewish children. This had very real implications to the state of israel, since if we allow anyone to call themselves jewish and to then become israeli citizens, we will quickly destroy the country. it will be a grave mistake. also note, many of these movements HATE israel. the reconstructionist movement (a branch of conservative), is virulently anti-israel. the large majority of their leaders are involved with anti-israel movements (like "rabbis for human rights"). to allow them into the country if they are legitamitly jewish, fine, but to allow them to bring in untold numbers of phoney "converts", forget about it!

More interesting is the position of the Baptists which constitute a far larger group of Israel's support in the US than the conservative or reform branches. They don't consider the Conservative and Reform "movements" to be reflective of the Jewish religion as they do not uphold the 5 Books of Moses.

It is so depressing that after thousands of years we still can’t live together as Jews. The Orthodox Jews detest Reform and Conservative Jews just because they don’t tie bits if leather around their arm and want to drive to see a movie on the Shabbat and the Reform and Conservative Jews think that Orthodox Jews are living in the middle ages and abuse their children. As Haber points out Israel has become a battleground for Jews instead of a common ground, it is just a shame that we can’t all live together under one banner instead of carving out our own little niches of fiefdom. Personally I blame the Orthodox Jews for their backward thinking and lack of parenting skills.

only because being Jewish has nothing to do with paperwork, corruption and business. This is the entire business of conversion. Being Jewish is having at least a Nefesh yehudi (or ruach or Neshama). If someone knows this, he can tell who is Jewish and who is not. The rest is monkey business.

I agree that the divisions between the Jewish people are threating. However, given that we have been spread out around the world for so long it is no surprise. Israel is still young, and it takes nations YEARS to work out all these intricacies. I have no doubt that Jewish love and unity will prevail.

The PM needs to focus on getting the haredim to serve in the military, take jobs and pay taxes and stop sucking the blood of the state by collecting welfare

is the truth. As others have already posted, the corrupt, elitist propaganda of the orthodox is of no authority to the majority of world Jewry. Only due to the fact that secular Zionism "dropped the ball", and left it up to the orthodox to run religious life in Israel, has this branch of Judaism been able to hold to clout that it does within the State, and only due to the fact that the "non-observant" built a State over the past 62 years to allow the orthodox a perch from which to preach. Only when "non-observant" Israeli Jews align themselves with the Reform and Conservative movements, will there ever be a chance of removing the medieval and self-righteous from the halls of political power. Rabbi Shlomo Amar is right in saying that these branches of Judaism are a threat to the State -- as HE wants it. Yet his pronouncements are no more Jewish to me than those of the Pope's. Just another battle in the ongoing war of the Jews.

You write, "The conservative and reform movements created a split by allowing non Jews to masquerade as Jews by either converting them not according to halacha or by stating that a Jewish father makes the children Jewish". Wrong, it was the TORAH, which stated that a Jewish father makes one Jewish, and that conversion was easy. This held for 2,000 years. Then the Rabbis changed it, and for the most recent 2,000 years, the Orthodox opinion prevailed, but it was once very new. You also say: This is just like a person saying they are an American citizen because he wants to be an American and loves America but never goes through the process of citizenship. " Wrong again - it's not opinionated whether or not one is an American citizen or not, but it IS VERY opinionated whether one is an acceptable convert. The extreme majority of Jews accept my view, that Reform and Conservative converts are Jews, and it is the Orthodox opinion that they are not. The problem is that the minority Orthodox believe that they should have control over those who don't even practice their man-made interpretation of the Torah.

You wrote : the extreme majority ........that reform and conservative converts are Jews . Can you give some stats and origin of this ?

7% of American Jews are Orthodox, and America has 40% of the world's Jews. Even on a conservative estimate, Orthodoxy is irrelevant to most of the world's Jews.

It is simply impossible to expect people, who become educated, especially in the sciences, to keep believing things that not only don't make sense, but are either totally absurd or of no consequence in the grand scheme of things. One of my grandsons, recently graduated with a degree in engineering, was heavily influenced as a youngster by the Christian beliefs of the grandparents on the other side of the family. To them, every word of the Old and New Testament is true exactly as written. Whereas for years he couldn't tell me often enough that I'd go to hell, he now admits that, in light of what the sciences taught him in just 4 short years, he barely manages to hang onto belief in God, at all and that hell would be lucky to have me. Either the Good Books consist of a lof of BS and are not remotely inspired by any God, or said God was a confused moron, who didn't know from one minute to the next what's what and/or how His/Her own creation works. A sane human being simply can't have it both ways. Fundamentalists of whatever flavor remind me of people, who read every self-help book available and run from one shrink to the other, not to get help, but to find justification to hang onto whatever their problems are. As glad as I am that I will, supposedly, no longer go to hell, I do wish that someone would explain to me, why, in and of itself and not considering the occasional advantages or disadvantages, the accident of one's birth has any personal merit whatsoever.

7 % orthodox , OK . But does this mean that all , or the "extreme majoprity" accept your views ? Do all the seculars accept ? I'm secular , and oppose the reform "conversions" made , i think , mostly to be married . Here it's a less risk , but abroad , many will leave Judaism , reform or not .

for that bill which will, thankfully, not be passed was to give its propopents publicity and, especially, free junkets to the States to "explain" the bill. Remember, that completely worthless and idiot Ayalon was one of the junketeers.

As to "accidents" of birth, some would say that they are not "accidents". Myself, I don't know. As to a compassionate God, after the Holocaust one must either dispense with "compassion" in defining God or else admit that God is not all powerful. Perhaps the Greeks had it right: The Gods play with men and even in their midsts there are divisions of power; they are mischevious and disputes reign. Nonetheless, and this is from my own personal experiences awakened through the Native Canadian education I have been fortunate enough to receive on the Canadian prairies, there are elements at work beyond those which we connect with on the rationale plane. I'm not interested in convincing anyone, just stating it as a matter of my own perceptions (without drugs) and many experiences. This whole shift came about while I was engaged in writing my PhD Thesis, most of which was published. I recall saying to myself: "Well, Robert, these are the facts as you witness them. You accept the facts that go into the body of your PhD Thesis so why not these." As to a loving God, I am very confused, however. Sometimes I think that all the suffering we undergoe on this plane is but a wink of the eye in God's mind and really doesn't amount to much but our own limited capacities obstruct us. That's the best I can do, Mrs. Hartley, in God's defence.

But would you accept them if they moved to Israel? If an American non-Orthodox convert moved next door to you, and her child wanted to marry someone Jewish, do you think s/he has the right to be married by their rabbi of choice. Do you think that person's presence here strengthens or harms Israel? And as far as "real" Jews go, how do you explain the reality of a rebbe with blue eyes, or that wherever Jews are in the Galut, they tend to resemble their host country. Eastern Euro Jews look like Eastern Europeans, Spanish Jews look Spanish, Jews from Arabs-speaking countries look Arab, etc. Sounds like there has been lots of mixing throughout the galut, but only one narrow stream, filled with blue-eyed blonds, as if that could happen naturally from a Semitic people, wants to tell everyone else that they are the only arbiters.

You are ignorant, and loudmouthed. Reading the scripture alone can lead to obtuse and absurd ideas, such as espoused by the followers of the dead messiah , the followers of the lunatic highwayman, and the Karites. There is another sphere of Torah, the oral transmission, clearly referred to in the text, and rendered into text by the masters of the Mishna and Talmud. What you refer to sneeringly is the Oral Torah as reflected by the Rabbis and from there emerges our National Constitution. May it be his will that we ( including you) see it enacted once again.

The Orthodox do not hate the non-O. They regard them with pity, and see them a hole in the lifeboat of Judaism. And they are not the air we breathe, perhaps the opposite is true. The acceptance of patrelinear decsent is the de facto schism in Judaism, It was never and never will be accepted. You might also ponder the sad prophecy of the Hazal: " the future Redemption will mirror the Exodus from Egypt. In the latter, 80% stayed behind or perished. About the projected loss through assimilation of nearly all American Jews, the scripture foretells: And you will be lost among the Nations, the land of your enemies will consume you, Leviticus 26;38

If they moved to Israel ? If they can make Alyah , they are followers of the Jewish faith . To become Jews , some generations are needed [ this for any kind of conversion ] . Regarding genetics . Now the Sabras of East European parents have also a different look , they look Israeli . There was mixing , but Jews have some genes in common , be they from any place in the world [ my doctor studied it ]

those who claim to authoritively tell us what the "Good Book" means (i.e., those who interpret it)? It is human arrogance to "assume" it's either a foolish deity or uninspired "Good Book" but that it could NOT have been humans who fable-ize it. That's the same arrogance that concludes an "unloving deity," rather than humans, was responsible for the Holocaust. In both cases, the imbeciles and villains are the humans, not the Prime Cause Creator of the universe. Torah corroborates, not contradicts, that. It merely takes someone with triple-digit IQ to grasp it instead of swallowing human-fabricated fables from arrogant humans who cannot grasp it. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer: Teimani, Baladi, Dor Dai Jew Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jew geirim)

between Ashkenazim and Sephardim has been rigorously shown to be scientifically significant by recent (2010) research by Atzmon and Ostrer. An layperson's article can be found in the N. Y. Times if you google "genetic studies + jews". Hope this helps clarify.

yes . But no "deity" was there to protect [ no poweer ] . This "deity" did'nt wanrt to intervene , or worse this "deity" wanted it to happen . Someone who "converts" can't have a "three digit IQ" . But he did'nt do it , can't bring any proof . Only tell lies and deceive people .

you act as if a high iq is the holy grail of understanding truth, when in fact the opposite is true. look at all of the brilliant minds that are convinced that the bible isn't true and jews are the source of the worlds problems. look at you, a hot-headed bigot that continually contradicts himself. some of the most disturbed people throughout history had brilliant minds, many have committed suicide because of their internal torment. heck, many of the crazy cult leaders and fanatics have high iq's, need i say more? people with high iq's all think think truth and knowledge ends with their understanding and explanation. that's part of the reason this world is so screwed up.

Isn't it the ultimate arrogance for any human being to believe him/herself capable to "interpret" and explain an unknown and unknowable God? As for your last paragraph, one admits being an imbecile, if one doesn't go along with what some self-proclaimed or elected genius peddles. Heads I win, tails you lose. How nice, although not too clever, if you have a mind, at all. God would probably be a lot more merciful than we'll be on the day we'll have to answer for and to ourselves. I have the feeling that "but the Rabbis, Popes, ETC. told me...." won't go over too well. In matters of conscience, I refuse to leave my choices to anyone else, regardless of their IQ. My mother died when I was 16, and by that time, she had succeeded to drill into my head, with words and by example, that, "Unless they stand you against the wall and shoot you, what others say, think, and do has no bearing on what and who you know you are." If you want to listen to other people, have at it. I prefer to use whatever brain and capacity to think I was given, and if, after reading them, they tell me that those Good Books contain a lot of nonsense, I'll say so.

To do your bidding. Every blind-ignorant people claims "their" supernatural puppet. So whoever won a battle "proved" theirs was "the" most powerful "god." Exactly the opposite: humans are to learn to recognize that the Creator is smarter than humans--especially arrogant, hate-mongering humans--and do the bidding of the Creator. As long as you laughably obsess on the lack of your own personal (or Jews' racist) supernatural puppet, that didn't do what you arrogantly (and mistakenly) are certain He should have, you will continue to be in your darkness and stupidity. There is a far bigger picture of the universe and its Prime Cause Creator-Singularity. This elementary truth cannot be comprehended by the arrogant and the hate-mongers--who are the ish baar and k'sil all religious Jews recite and warn against every Shabat. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer: Teimani, Baladi, Dor Dai Jew Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jew geirim)