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Top rabbis: IDF conversions endorse gentiles as Jews
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 13.10.10, 07:40
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1. Conversions
Alfredo Espinoza ,   Australia   (10.13.10)
Like who cares for what those old and decrepit men say, they are as far away from God as any one can be. Those converted soldiers and those rabbies are doing Israel a favour then, together with those Ingrates. Who is closer to God, those who think they are or those fighting and giving their lives for Israel?. I think the answer is an easy one. INGRATE OLD MEN. No one can with the best to those parasites
2. People who don't serve in the IDF
Michal ,   Tel Aviv   (10.13.10)
have no right to say that the people who do serve in the only Jewish army and feel they belong to the Jewish people are not Jews. Only G-d has the right to decide who has the nitzotz, no one on Earth can see that, especially not bigoted draft evaders, people who sponge off the country while not contributing to it.
3. All soldiers Jews?
Greene ,   Israel   (10.13.10)
The soldiers who fought in our army,have a great merit,and should be given the israeli nationality.But why do they claim to be jewish,if they have nor jewish blood,nor want to follow Tora laws.What is jewish about them ?They are great Israelis.
4. Elyashiv
John de Frece ,   Ramat Gan   (10.13.10)
I know you wont publish this: Elyashiv is a revolting obscurantist thug He and his minions are worhy only of contempt
5. these rabbis wouldn't accept King David...
because King David's grandmother was Ruth the Moabitess and so King David would not have been kosher enough for them!
6. Dear Rabbis
an orthodox convert ,   Jerusalem   (10.13.10)
Do you have any idea how difficult the conversion process is? Do you have any idea how painful it is to be constantly and permanently referred to as "Ger Tzedek"? Do you have any idea how much I love Israel? Do you have any idea what it meant to me to serve in the IDF? Do you have any idea how all of my questions are difficult for me to ask because I know that to ask them means that even after spending over half of my life as a Torah observant Jew who has served in the IDF you still choose not to accept me? With all due respect and in humility before the mighty and merciful G-d of Israel I KNOW that you are showing disrespect not only to me and all other converts to Judaism but also to G-d himself! Shame on you!
7. No1
michael ,   Sydneu - Australia   (10.13.10)
Agree with you 100%. Michael
8. it's funny, but...
eddie ,   london UK   (10.13.10)
the same rabbis, or their fathers, did what they are now opposing, less than 40 years ago - ie approving a "goy" as being an honorary Jew, with no evidence that he had converted, nor that he knew anything about Judaism (he could not complete the simple "Shema Yisrael...". So these so called rabbis care nothing about Torah, only to oppose anything to do with Zionism or the state of Israel.
9. #2 Being Jewish has nothing to do with "feeling" they belong
Shalom   (10.13.10)
and it has nothing to do with joining the secular IDF army. Jews have 613 mitzvot they have to observe. If a non-Jew wants to become Jewish, he has to follow ALL the mitzvot in the Torah whether he approves of it or not. Some little guy in the army who calls himself Rabbi does not have enough authority to convert goyim into OUR HOLY NATION. It's only orthodox Rabbis who have the power for conversion. The Jewish religion is DIFFERENT than religions of other nations where anybody can join and even forced upon. We are a HOLY NATION and we do not need goyim in our midst.
10. loyalty oath
Michael ,   Haifa   (10.13.10)
Maybe the obnoxious loyalty oath should read " a democratic and Lithuanian-Jewish State"
11. Abraham kept all flaps of his tent open to never miss a
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA   (10.13.10)
potential convert. Some rabbis keep all flaps of their brain closed to miss every sincere convert.
12. At least , contrary to those "rabbis" , serve
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (10.13.10)
the Nation , giving three years of their life , and sometimes even their life to protect our Country . They certainly deserve to be Israeli Jews , they have done something for it , and this contrary to some "kosher" [ for those rabbanim ] converts .
13. Kipa Sruga says these Rabbis are correct... Standards of
Charles   (10.13.10)
these "conversions" appear to be BELOW Reform standards. There are only 4 months of classes. They are NOT taught that Torah is from Hashem. The great majority do NOT keep Shabbos when they finish the "course". They are sprinkling holy water on non-Jews and calling them Jews. This can lead to irreparable consequences. These orthodox neo Reform standards do not conform top those of ANY major orthodox Jewish organization performing conversions. There are NO standards here; it is time we Non Haredi wake up; the process is a farce - just see how many keep Mitzvot after this "course". It is painful to read about this, but unfortunately, these Haredi Rabbis are correct. FWIW, I wear a Kippa Sruga & I have a son in Hesder.
14. #9 Key Ger Haita b'Mitzrim (you were a stranger in Egypt)
Ahuva   (10.13.10)
You sir are expressing anti-Torah views. You sir are COMMANDED BY GOD to show lovingkindness to all strangers in our midst and all converts in our land because GOD commanded you to remember to show lovingkindness to all because WE all (that means you too) were strangers in the land of Egypt! Your tone and your statements remind me of what was said to us when we were strangers in other lands and it saddens me greatly that you have learned absolutely nothing from all of our sufferings! That said: 1. in the IDF my brothers in arms included Druze (the loyalest and bravest of all), Beduin (the stealthiest and wisest of trakers) and Chekesim (gentleman one and all). All of these none Jewish people ARE my brothers in arms and I am very proud to be able to say that we served together in defending the State of Israel. 2. Do you really want me to believe that the late Rabbi Goren, z"l, who instituted the conversion procedures for the IDF is just "some little guy". Funny I thought that he was not only the Chief Rabbi of the IDF during the 6 day war but also one of the Chief Rabbis of the State of Israel. Your lack of lovingkindness borders on "Sinas Hinam" ("Baseless Hatred") and as such has the power to wipe out the Holy Nation you seek to protect! Shame on you!
15. #9 FYI among our 613 mitzvot is the positve commandment....
for all males over the age of 20 to serve in the army of the nation. Its a deorita (from G-d) commandment so my question to you is have you filled all 613 mitzvot or have you just fullfilled the ones that interest you like "slaying yourself on the field of Torah" instead of serving in the army?
16. Charles # 13 - what are you talking about.
aliza ,   Israel   (10.13.10)
It IS the National Religious that are running the IDF conversion courses and the National Religious rabbis converting the soldiers. So in effect you are saying you belong to a Neo Reform strain of Judaism (your post shows ignorance so I doubt you do)which is an insult to me and all mafdalim.
17. To No.6
Charles   (10.13.10)
Dear Orthodox Convert, Welcome to the Jewish people, I am happy that you joined. To me, a frum from birth, people who I know who are a Ger Tzedek are usually a sincere Jew who humbles me in their presence. I believe the issue is not as you are seeing it. The current IDF unit involved in "converting" non Jews has EXTREMELY low standards that are well below what you evidently went through to join our people. As the IDF and these Rabbis have lowered the bar to perhaps non Halachic standards, there is a valid protest. Nobody is questioning your sincerity, but it is important to keep in mind that the process is a farce. Kabbalat Ol Mitzvot is such that per the numbers I have been told, over 97% do not keep Shabbos. As Kaballat Mitzvot is critical, wouldn't you agree that a program in which the GREAT majority do not keep Mitzvot, does not appear to be sincere and that the validity of the "converts" should naturally be called into question? The Reshaim are not the "converts" but rather the Rabbis who participate in and allow this farce to go on. BeAhavas Yisrael, Charles
18. No. 17 is right
nechama ,   ginot shomron   (10.13.10)
I am an orthodox convert myself. No one is saying that a new convert can realistically observe all 613 mitzvot. But not to observe Shabbat? Right after conversion?? We salute and respect all who serve in the IDF. But really, there is no such thing as "feeling Jewish in your heart."
19. to:an orthodox convert , Jerusalem
adam ,   Netanya   (10.13.10)
i am sure you know this, but i will say it again. halachicly chok d'oritah no one, again no one, is allowed to"permanently referred to as "Ger Tzedek"? or ever . you are a JEW and it is forbidden to remind you of that past . such to an extent that the rambam states that even if (heavan forbid) you return to the old ,past ways you are still a jew and always will be jewish . which is precisly why you worked and suffered so much for it. so i leave you with this be proud "Ruth"/"tana kama" perhaps you will bring us mashiach ben david
20. Aliza you shame yourself by insulting others,
Richard S. ,   Haifa   (10.13.10)
1)The army should spend all of its energy trying to win wars. 2)Leftist reformed extremists are not the only Jews.
21. #1 Why are all anti Jewish leftists insulting Torah True Jew
Richard   (10.13.10)
As for your insulting our Torah Sages, one wonders if you are an Orthodox Convert as you claim?
22. #16 Charles is self-proclaimed "PROUD atheist"
Israeli Jew ,   Israel   (10.13.10)
& anti-Judaism
23. #12 "serve"? U didn't serve a day!
Israeli ,   Israel   (10.13.10)
24. What business is it of these "rabbis"?
jason white ,   afula,israel   (10.13.10)
This is for us Jews and not them. Let them and their followers convert first and become real Jews!
25. You missed the point Charles
#6   (10.13.10)
You failed miserably instead of addressing me as "Dear Orthodox Convert" you should have addressed me as "Dear Orthodox Jew" You see you really don't understand anything but then that is the whole issue isn't it because you are "frum from birth" and in writing that you give yourself the above all of us position of placing yourself in the place to judge! Be more humble in your search for understanding...remember that it doesn't matter to G-d that you are frum from birth. Remember that it is written in the Tanach that God loves and cares for a generation of Jews who have "fallen" to idol worshipping so long as they are kind and loving to their fellow man/woman/Jew/non-Jew Remember that we just read in Parshat Noach that the generation of the flood was destroyed because of baseless hatred and yet the generation that built the tower of Babel was honored for working together as one. From what you write it is clear that you have no idea what goes on in the IDF's conversion classes. It is clear that you do not know that Rabbi Goren (yes Rabbi Goren) set up the program and that it is still followed today. It is clear that you have no idea that on conversion certificates signed by Rabbi Goren there was an additional proviso which read "conversion valid in Israel". Rabbi Goren's principle requirement was that those who he accompanied through the conversion process and who are today Jews are Jews because according to the RAMBAM any Jew who walks three steps in the land of Israel is forgiven all of his sins. The logic of Rabbi Gorens responsa is that he is interested in being sure that Jews remain in Israel and build up the land. He does not judge and he does not politically measure nor police how many mitzvot this or that Jew observes. He was a modern man who realized that the strength of Israel rests in how much each individual Jew loves the land and how far each individual Jew goes in protecting the Land. Is it not possible that all of these Lithuanian rabbis are more interested in maintaining control and power? and that you support them in that because you think that if you don't well then your frum from birth status is somehow tainted? I actually feel sorry for you!
26. #17 Charles to "orthodox convert"
aliza ,   Israel   (10.13.10)
I know women who came to Israel as kibbutz volunteers in the 1960s and converted to Judaism in Israel. I know many of them who do not keep the mitzvot. I heard one say that the mikve washed away all what the rabbi taught her and leads a secular life. So what standards do you hold the rabbis who converted them, they were converted by the high Halachic standards you approve of.
27. #1 It's people like you
Shalom   (10.13.10)
who do not understand how to respect Rabbis, parents and elders who we don't need in the Jewish nation.
28. To Aliza #16
Charles   (10.13.10)
Thank you for pointing out my ignorance. I wear a Kipa Sruga and am a frum Jew. My allegiance is to Hashem and his laws, not to the Mafdal. When the standards of the IDF conversions are below those accepted by the RCA, the CRC and others. While Rav Herschel Schachter of YU has cast doubt upon this process in shiurim at YU's website as well as in interviews that can be found on the internet, I think that a Jew concerned with Halacha should be wary. Perhaps you wish to follow blindly because some Rabbis in your strain of Orthodoxy approve it; I choose not to. While their intentions I do not know, the results of their actions are plain for all to see. Respectfully, Charles
29. Simple Solution to Conversion Issue
JEOD ,   MKE, USA   (10.13.10)
If you want to be sure you're marrying a Jew, make sure they are Shomer Mitzvot before marrying them. As for Jews who want to marry Jews "because", too bad. Like in America, you have be ACT Jewish to merit marrying somebody who IS Jewish. No more free ride for Israelis in this regard.
30. Whatever the halakhic standard of the conversions ...
Mikey ,   SomeWhere OverHere   (10.13.10)
whether they are adequate or not, the IDF should not be in the business of converting soldiers, period. The job of the IDF is to train them for soldiering and military life, whatever their religious status is! True, most of these soldiers who wish to undergo conversion in the IDF are of partial Jewish heritage (children of mixed marriages--often from Russian backgrounds) and view themselves socially as Jews but are not halakhically Jews and let's face it--many are not ready to accept a Torah-observant lifestyle--and IDF rabbis press them to "fix" their Jewish status by rushed-through conversions--let these good young men and women live their lives in the army without pressuring them to "convert" under auspices of the IDF rabbinate and if they choose to convert by themselves, let them do that later--in the meanwhile, we can accept them as fellow Israelis and part of the extended Jewish family, even if Orthodox Jews can't marry them or count them in a minyan.
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