Okay, I'll take your point. No World War II analogies. How about this: blaming Israel for the September 11, 2001 attacks is like blaming the Christians of Banda Ace for being massacred by the Indonesian army. There, is that better? We can also say that blaming Israel for the September 11, 2001 attacks is like blaming the animists of southern Sudan for being slaughtered by the northern Sudanese Moslems. Both the former and the latter have been devastating and are ongoing. I'm not trying to silence anyone. I think vigorous debate among articulate and intelligent people is both healthy and educational. I would, however, ask you this. exactly how many bites at the apple do you think the ersatz “Palestinians” should have? They have rejected opportunities for a two-state solution no fewer than three times -- most recently, they turned down an offer which would have given them 90% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as a capital, choosing to start the second intifada instead. That didn't work out terribly well for them, but they did reveal their hand (something Jews have known for a very long time) -- they are not interested in a mutually-beneficial co-existence with Israel; they want to supplant Israel. That was proven yet again today, when they refused to modify the Security Council resolution, forcing the United States to veto. They are not interested in half a loaf -- they want the whole thing. That's just not going to happen. And they will blame the United States, the Israelis, the Jewish community and the clear blue sky; but it is never their fault. Nothing is EVER their fault. Do you appreciate the fact that six wars and seven decades of unrelenting terror have left the Israelis less than favorably disposed towards them? Israel's long-term survival is ensured by a defensible territory. We live in a terrible neighborhood. But (forgive the reference to World War II) we will NEVER file passively into gas chambers again. And we will do what it takes to ensure that. You are, I trust, aware that Israel is a member in good standing of both nuclear clubs -- possessing nuclear weapons and capable of the much harder part: delivery capacity. That has been the case since the 1960s. Yet we have never -- even in 1973 -- introduced nuclear warfare in the Middle East. Do you think any Arab or Moslem state would be capable of such restraint? We're talking about people who glorify terrorists and suicide bombers. Jihadist mentality. The first chance that any one of them has to launch a nuclear device, we all know who the target will be. All Israel wants is a tiny fraction of the Middle Eastern land mass; a small corner of our ancient homeland where we can be safe. Where we can live, continue with our incredible contributions to civilization and humankind. We haven't had that until the establishment of the modern Israeli state. I do feel regret for the ersatz "Palestinians" -- they have been keelhauled by their brother Arabs and their greedy and irresponsible leadership. But after six wars and seven decades of terror, I don't think that Israel should be made to pay the price.

That's $10 billion well spent. You of all people should know that it was the Arabs you support that flew planes into the WTC, not Israelis. Furthermore, if the USA stopped giving that aid to Israel, it would cause massive layoffs and unemployment to the US companies that Israel is required to spend that money on. On the other hand, Israel would not even miss that money. Remember, our economy is still in the dumps, but the Israeli economy is roaring,

How many billions of U.S. money goes into the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not only many billions of dollars, but hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers are stationed there risking their lives. Israel soldiers fight for themselves and don't ask for U.S. troops to fight for them. The iraquis and Afhganis have U.S. troops to fight for them and the U.S. protects Kuwait, S. Arabia and other arab countries.

Or only the title, and then quickly skipped to spew out your empty slogans? If you had read the entire article, as well as Sarah's illuminating post in #14, you'd get ample proof that your vitriol is nonsense.

Your objective opinion is not only objective, it shows much of that well meaning (?) and cute American naivete regarding ideas about how Israel should ensure its survival, by stopping all building, (by the way - Gilo, one of the places Israel was building, is in Jerusalem proper, not the "west bank") giving back more land, sitting down with our Palestinian neighbors and really getting to know each other...smoking the peace pipe. So, as far as you are concerned, Israel has not yet made any attempts at a peaceful solution. Well, if all we have to do is be the nice guys, fair enough. I had no idea it was so simple. Like I said - naive. Or just plain ignorance. You might want to re-read Sarah's comments.

Somebody please tell the president of US (Obama).

The truth is Turkey has historically been far better and useful ally to the US than the sho box-sized Israel can ever imagine to be! Israel is nothing but trouble for the US and an increasingly more AMericans are beginning to realize that so America's Ultimate Welfare State may soon be cut off!

Something your article for got to mention? ... The Zionist ENtity causes nothing but trouble for the US by attracting much Anti-US sentiment along with robbing the American taxpayer of Billions of their hard-earned tax Dollars as the Zionist Entity has one of a parasitical relationship with the US

----if the USA stopped giving that aid to Israel, it would cause massive layoffs and unemployment to the US companies that Israel is required to spend that money on. On the other hand, Israel would not even miss that money. Yes, I keep hearing this argument. Here is the reality. If instead of the US government giving billions of dollars to Israel it instead gave this money to US cities (for rapid transit systems, etc.) there would be no loss of jobs. Perhaps even a gain as there would be an "economic mulitplier effect" (making US infrastructrure more efficient benefits both the US economy and US quality of life.) Or, if the US government simply didn't spend the money at all--which is acquired through incessant borrowing--and kept that money with the US taxpayer, it would likewise be spent in the US and create jobs as well as have an "economic multiplier effect." More Americans would benefit by building something in the US, and keeping it there, than giving Israel some fancy piece of American hardware. Any way you slice it, this is money coming from average Americans (and our children, and their children given interest on the debt) and going to Israel. I've heard on this board many times that these are credits, and therefor not true gifts. So if your bank gave you five thousand dollars and told you this money must be used to pay your mortgage on a note it held, would this not be a gift? The argument that this money is somehow not a gift because there are strings attached---god forbid there is a slight benefit to the US!---is a little silly (and ungrateful.) ----On the other hand, Israel would not even miss that money. If our money is so insignificant, then by all means refuse it. After all, in doing so Israelis wouldn't have to listen to Americans like myself. They'd be like a grown child who has (finally) moved out of the house and no longer needs to listen to what mom and dad tell them to do. But the fact is, of course, Israel benefits greatly from this money. By the US paying for these weapons, Israel is allowed to spend money elsewhere (that they would have spent on the military.) Billions of dollars, even in Washington DC, is not chump change and you do your cause no favors in viewing it as such. -----cute American naivete And what is the reason so many European nations believe likewise? Same with Asian? Same with African and Latin American? So you have a problem with Americans, do you? Or is it simply you have a need to stereotype every nationality on the planet while--I'm sure---being one of the first and loudest to to whine if someone does likewise to Israelis. Comments such as #35 have to be THE MOST counterproductive to Israeli interests of ALL the comments on this board.

Until Turkey hitched a ride with Iran for trade agreements and lslamic regional control. The shoe box sized Israel remains a steadfast ally of the US. Full support for Israel!!!

Apparently this wiseguy thinks he's so smart, but he completely failed to rebuff Ettinger's strong arguments about Israel's outstanding stability in this rough neighborhood, and the money its existence saves the US. Additionally he is clearly no match to your solid, comperehensive and lucid arguments. In his post #22, he conveniently failed to defend his outrageous allegation that 9/11 is Israel's fault, instead he changed the subject and attacked you on your choice of comparison. He also completely failed to defend his allegation about "Israeli belligerance", after you put him on the spot. And he also failed to address your point that in Israel, the US dollars DO make a difference, unlike those Arab countries where it goes down the drain. And I'm pretty sure that with your latest brilliant post at #31, he would also ignore most of it and instead nitpick you on some unimportant side issues. Now I also wanted to add another important point here. You Sarah probably know better than I do, exactly how much money did it cost the American tax payers, to bail out the American banking system from its incompetent and irresponsible management? How much did it cost to bail out the near-bankrupt auto manufacturers? And how much did it cost (and still costing) to advance Obama's dubious Health Care Reform? Or to keep the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq? Compared to these petro-dollars going down the tube, I believe the American aid to Israel is around the last thing American tax payers should be concerned about.

Excuse me, but Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran, which is an act of war. Similarly, in May of 1967, Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran again. After diplomatic efforts failed to relieve the blockade, Israel responded. Yes, I do remember the USS LIBERTY. The United States sent a spy ship to the Med, in order to eavesdrop on Israeli military communications. The content of those communications were then immediately conveyed to the Syrians and Jordanians,. In a time of war. That is why the USS LIBERTY was blown out of the water,. Please tell me a country at war that would have done differently. Rachel Corrie, et al. entered Israel falsely. They claimed to be "tourists." They lied. Whatever happened to them (thank G-d) was their fault. Finding the nearest "Palestinian" protest is hardly tourism. Jonathan Pollard? Okay. How many American assets were comprised because of what he did? Answer: NONE. Can you say the same for the Walker family, Aldrich Ames or Robert Hansen? No, you cannot. Oh, please. Read your history.

Let me take issue with what you said. Number 4 is correct with respect to the settlements. What he didn't add was that there are 8 other Security Council resolutions saying either the same thing or addressing Israel's illegal annexation of the Golan and Jerusalem. There is, of course, the 2004 ICJ ruling which also stated the WB settlements were illegal under art 49 of the Geneva Convention and Obama's UN speech last year. In terms of Number 4's quotation from the 9-11 report, he is exactly correct, it is on p.147 and that was a bipartisan report. Kalid Sheikh Mohammed's nephew ,Ramsi Usef, said basically the same thing (ie: violent disagreement with US foreign policy favoring Israel) at his trial for attempting to blow up the World Trade Center in 1993 w/a truck bomb . Osama bin Laden in 1996 and 1998 in published interviews said his enemy w/Israel and its Zionist partner, the US. Joe Biden told Netanyahu that building settlements put a target on our military's back and Hillary Clinton told Netanyahu worse than that. in terms of aid, 75% of the aid to Israel is free weapons($2.25billion). The other 25% is an outright grant($750 million) WHICH IS A DIRECT SUBSIDY to the Israeli arms industry. Israel is the 8th largest arms exporter in the world and the US arms industry(which does not get outright grants) does not want to compete with the Israeli arms industry when they have all our technical specs and pricing. Israel incidentally sold a modified version of our drone technology to China.

Thank you so very, very much for your kind words. How much money has this pathetic administration cost the United States (For little or no return, I might add)? Oh, goodness. Trillions or quadrillions, I should imagine. I can get the twelve-year-old math genius to answer, but he's way too busy on Facebook (sigh). But yes, the answer would be "lots and lots." Thank you again, dear. We'll be back in Saviyyon for Pesach. I would truly love to meet you.

Your talkbacks are always extremely interesting and factual. I agree with you whole heartedly, and would love to meet up with you in Savyion. You're a "breath of fresh air". Sandra

people start to believe in it as its is truth. Truth of the matter, today more than ever officials and other in the US questioning and wondering what exactly is the benefit of Israel to the us. Israel is becoming a bigger and bigger headache to US as time go by.

You're not telling the truth Sarah, about Suez, the Liberty, 9/11, JFK, Rachel Corri, and as usual, you're rewriting history to sustain your victim status. So if you know so much about our most famous traitors, you must be privy to some important secrets..please enlighten us...Or, maybe not..you haven't told the truth on anything yet..You just strut some authoritative pose to enourage scared Zionists not to lose heart. as it's obvious their world and yours is falling around your ears..... Why not read the American versions of history and then do a comparison study on your versions? Tell us again how Israel is the victim again, and again, and again.. Bet you can't.. TATA

Thank you so much. You would be so very, very welcome!

I'll tell you what. The very second that the United States returns lands stolen from native Americans, I'll answer your stupid post. How about that?

The US gov't clearly took indian land through war at a time when international and domestic law ,worldwide, was "the law of conquest".In other words it was legal albeit deplorable. Every country in the world which was created prior to 1928 falls in this same category. In 1928 after the death and destruction of WWI, the law of conquest was changed under the Kellogg Briand Treaty. That was reaffirmed in both the conclusions in the Nuremberg Trials and the UN Charter.From 1928 forward you cannot gain territory by war. It says that in the preamble to UNSC res 242 with has been since 1967 the basis for Middle East peace (and was accepted by Israel) The examples you have previously given in the past of for instance Germany losing land after WWII was caused by Germany agreeing to those terms in a peace treaty. If Israel gained land through a peace treaty with the Palestinians (with the concurrence of both sides) that is legal. Israels annexations are not and the entire world and it's representative legal body has been saying that for over 30 years. Your childish rant about my stupid post and "How about that?" is simply a diversion. Either answer the specific facts I provided in my post or don't. If you don't answer each one specifically you are, by omission, admitting they are true.

Twice now it has been mentioned that the 9/11 organizer was motivated by the US's support of Israel. Twice now this point has not been addressed. This is what you should say: "Yes, there has been an extremely high cost to Americans for US for support of Israel. Henceforward, I will challenge those Israelis on this board who believe US support (and money) to be "insignificant." Likewise, I will refrain from ahistorical comparisons as while they may impress people like tahl, they in no way answer the question at hand. Much as if someone defended himself on the charges of murder by pointing out that others kill people also."

No, by not answering you I am informing you that you are too stupid for the gene pool. Please do not reproduce.

In fact Osama Bin Laden hardly mentioned the Palestinian issue as a reason for 9/11. Resolution 242 (which the Arab states voted against) does not require Israel to return all the territory taken in 1967. It states that Israel needs to return 'lands' but does not state that Israel needs to return' the 'lands or 'all the' lands in spite of the Soviet and Arab attempts to introduce these words into the resolution. Furthermore, the West bank was controlled by Jordan at the time of the war, not the Palestinians (anyway at the time there was no Palestinian nation}. The West bank was not a country or state. It is also interesting that the UN does not condemn as illegal the Chinese invasion and conquest of Tibet nor the Turkish conquest and occupation of part of Cyprus. Both of those were indeed independent states when those events occurred. As far as the legality of the 'law of conquest' is concerned, I wonder what the indigenous people of those conquered lands feel about your assertions that it was OK.

Yes but to continue your analogy, the problem is that the others who murdered were never accused or punished.

Oh, please. Do you actually mean to suggest that were it not for Israel, there would have been no September 11? That there would be no United States bases in the Persian Gulf (protecting oil, I might add, not Jews)? Your suggestion is disgusting and disgraceful. If you have a bone to pick, it is with the Arab states that have BEGGED the United States to maintain a presence. Take your extraordinarily stupid arguments there.

You are not answering my post at #43 because you are incapable of offering a credible rebuttal to every accurate statement I made and that is apparent to everyone.

The UN did not condemn the Chinese invasion of Tibet after WWII because they deemed it part of an internal civil war within China. That is outside the scope of the UN per its own charter. No country would join the UN if their own internal politics(abhorrent as they may be) could be changed by a joint action by the UN.There are exceptions if a regional conflict involving other countries can result. In the case of Cyprus, a Greek Junta was committing genocide on the Turkish minority. I believe the UN in the case of genocide should have stepped in but like Ruanda they did not and the Turks did. The Greeks were not only killing the Turks but appropriating their land. The BBC has interviews that go back to 1996 with Osama Bin Laden which say exactly what I said. As for Khalid Shiekh Mohammed, his testimony in US captivity is summarized and quoted in the 9-11 report on P147. His nephew Ramsi Usef is also quoted from his trial transcript. In terms of UNSC res 242 it says several things. Among them is you cannot gain territory as a result of war which every formal peace proposal which Israel has offered has violated. It also addresses secure borders. In every Israeli proposal, Israel is still 15 kilometers wide at its narrowest point. The settlements have nothing to do with security and everything to do with a greater historical Israel.

Tibet was a free and independant State. There was no basis for deciding that the takeover was internal to internal civil war. It was stated only because the UN did not want to alienate China and could not have stoppoed her in any case . Resolution 242 is clear that Israel does not need to return all the land As the British Foreign minister stated at the time, the Israeli borders were not defensible and the borders can be changed somewhat. The west bank does not and is not a part of any recognized state. Despite the attempts to paint Israel as gobbling up chunks of West bank territory, since 1967 Israeli settlements only compromise about 3-4% of the territory of the West Bank and generally close to the green line. Israel & the US have offered a State to the new nation of Palestinians (over 95% and including land swaps)several times, they refused. They refused the original recommendation of the UN in 1948 as well. They have no intention of ever having a Palestinian State unless it incorporates all of Israel. It states that fact in both the PLO and Hamas constitutions.