Respect a 2-way street
Dina Avramson
Published: 02.03.12, 14:24
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ZIMBI ,   NJUSA   (03.02.12)
2. Respect for Jewdaism in this country is easy
Rebecca ,   Modiin   (03.02.12)
For an office function, or even a group of office workers going out together where they will discuss work, it's really easy to find a Kosher resterant. Food is food. You want to discuss work in a nicer setting to the office, then there is no difference between a kosher resterant and a treif one. So there I think the seculars will not be put out much by going Kosher. However, a private wedding, where you are only one of all the guests, if it's not Kosher, dont go, or just go for the chupa. It is private. Work is not. As for buses on Shabbat, there are alternatives already. Yes they may be more expensive but that is the secular compromise. The religous compromise is NOT to stone the cars that are driving. I agree with compromise and mutual respect but it must be mutual and appropriate.
3. Common sense is not common
Aaron ,   Usa   (03.02.12)
That was a beautifully written article. I am a Jew who has lived the religious life and the secular life. I lived at Kever Yosef with the Yeshiva students and in Tel Aviv with college kids. I think your point of view is what is so commonly missed. We can live our lives and allow others to live theirs and we can all be happy. I respect your right to maintain your life any way you like. And to see someone who respects mine is greatly appreciated. Thanks for writing that. Aaron
4. There is an unwritten law
Sagi   (03.02.12)
which is extant throughout the entire world, nothing to do with Judaism or Shabbat, that expects one to show great respect for men of the cloth. They mostly do not demand this respect, as is the case in Judaism, but it is given to them by accepted convention. To myself and others this is totally unacceptable. A person commands respect rather than demanding it, the very fact that he commands it indicates that he deserves it. In the case of Israel and our society, the constant demand that all should bend and bow to the demands and life style of the ultra religious, will eventually lead to civil strife which will have a devastating effect on the fabric of society. In fact it is an issue of cardinal importance, in my humble opinion a matter of life and death for our future.
5. Thank you Dina
Esther ,   Ofarim   (03.02.12)
6. A voice in the widerness...
A Jerusalemite ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (03.02.12)
7. Shabbat Buses in Jewish state? go private!
Jewish Whale ,   Haifa, Israel   (03.02.12)
If you want equal respect for both sides then Charedim should have private bus lines for them so as to be segregated and seculars can have their private shabbat lines. This is a Jewish state, what is next? Outlawing Pesach and Yom Kippur out of respect for those seculars as well?
8. Thank you for this article, heres to us
meghan ,   israel   (03.02.12)
all getting along, whatever we feel, each to his/her own.
Dat's wot I say ,innit ?
10. To: No. 7
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (03.02.12)
Easy for you to say. You live in Haifa, where buses do run on Saturday. Given your point of view, it's somewhat strange that you would choose to live there.
11. To: Dina Avramson
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (03.02.12)
Of course, nothing stopped you from bringing your own kosher meal and bottle of water to enjoy while all of your colleagues were wolfing down tref, isn't that right? So please spare us the self-pity routine.
12. Bravo
Moshe R ,   New York, USA   (03.02.12)
Finally a religious Jew writes persuasively on the topic. I hope that some people that can convince a few people to see the the light.
13. It is not a question of respecting people!
Robert Blum ,   New Albany, USA   (03.02.12)
Rather, Israel was given to the Jewish nation and then the diaspora was imposed upon us, because of not respecting by means of adherence, the Torah. Those Jews who choose to live as the other nations, 'goyim', destroy Israel from within. The laws of Kashrut, living kosher lives in every aspect of the meaning of cleanliness as per accordance to Torah law, make us Jews. Anything less, the nation loses its identity and eventually the land itself., because the priorities without kashrut and without keeping the Sabbath holy, which G-d gave to us as a gift, not only desecrates the Torah, but removes the Holy Presence from the land and will surely cause our enemies to prevail.
14. To: No. 13
MnEd ,   USA   (03.02.12)
Get a grip Robert, it is fortunate that G-d is not as myopic as you. This was a beautiful article written by an individual with an equally beautiful soul.
15. no to religious coercion
Haim ,   TA   (03.02.12)
Let them go worship their imaginary friend in the sky by all means, but do not dictate to others how to live their lives, what to eat, what to wear , they need to take a good hard look at their ultra orthdox friends and see what atrosoties these people are up to , their latest breaking and entering a elderly womans appartment and beating her black and blue as they didnt approve of her religious beliefs, and these people are telling me how to live my life?
16. 2 way street
Paul ,   Warwick, England   (03.02.12)
Very well said, I agree with your idea of mutual respect. I don't keep shabat nor eat kosher, but I respect that others do. If we have friends visiting who keep kosher we will eat out. I ask our children to keep the noise down on shabat so as not to disturb our neighbours when we are in Israel. I certainly don't want to be told that I have to do things in a certain way just because it is how someone thinks it should be done.
17. Respect????
Phoenix ,   Israel   (03.02.12)
Why should we respect the ones who do not respect the rest??? Why??? The Haredim are constantly insulting and attacking the Hilonim. The Haredim should understand and respect the Hilonim as they live from us! They live from our money and from our protection as they don't do NOTHING usefull. Do not work and do not serve in the Army. We are also fools by giving them free money for reading the same siddur every single day and behaving like animals. If we stop feeding them with free money they will have to work or at least leave the country as they don't actually believe nor respect the State of Israel; they live here cause it's the only country were they can get free money and being lazy all they want. We most stop Feeding them cause they are useless parasites.
18. #2 - you proved the author's point
William ,   Israel   (03.02.12)
"As for buses on Shabbat, there are alternatives already. Yes they may be more expensive but that is the secular compromise. The religous compromise is NOT to stone the cars that are driving." Your intransigence is exactly the point this author was making. Stone cars as a response to YOUR so-called hurt feelings? You have no right, just as seculars have no right to stone the religious who protest for this or that. Why should seculars, especially in Tel Aviv, have to compromise on Shabbat when they do not adhere to the same strict beliefs as you? You don't have to ride the bus - which most times don't even go through religious areas. There are "offenses" every day all over Israel but the real answer to this is to be introspective, ensuring you do not stray from your own beliefs, and let it pass. Indeed, you cannot cover up the girl wearing shorts at the beach, or cut electricity lines to a house with a loud TV on Shabbat, but you can make sure you adhere to your own beliefs - otherwise what good are they? BTW - picking up a stone to throw at a car on Shabbat is considered "work" and thus a desecration of Shabbat, regardless of what your rebbe says.
19. #7 talk about turning a guppie into a whale
William ,   Israel   (03.02.12)
This is about public transport - which is a social right in any State - and not the Jewish character of the State. Equating a bus on Shabbat with outlawing Pesach just "just reaching for straws" which indicates you don't really have much of an argument. However, out of respect for seculars, you cannot attack them if you see them eating bread on Pesach. Better to educate them as to value of eating motza on Pesach, or make a public compromise - haradim give in on buses but want Pesach honored with no bread sales. You want it all which is inexcusable.
20. #11 - most restaurants forbid outside food
William ,   Israel   (03.02.12)
kosher or non-kosher.
21. Actually, ignorance and intransigence destroy Israel
William ,   Israel   (03.02.12)
That is, those who insist they are the only "true" path demonize the other. When we have a country full of small groups demonizing everyone else, there is no other result than a crumbling society. Societies of great heterogeneous populations are successful because of acceptance of others - goyim or not - they are still humans and Jews are DEMANDED by G-d to treat them as his children as well!!! First, while I believe firmly in the Torah as G-d's world, I am suspect of even the most learned human successfully interpreting it, especially closed-minded rebbe's and their followers. Second, pertaining to the first point, how are you even sure you're following the correct path of Torah? Over-doing it 1000x in order to hope that you followed G-d's rule means you have no idea what you're really doing and are playing the statistics. Finally. the honor of Torah is taking it internally and making it holy. If you are quick to attack your fellow man due to how THEY treat Shabbat even while you keep it honorable and holy, you still desecrated the Torah. G-d will always have a holy presence in our land. He admitted so and stated our return - even the diaspora - are his will, and he has honored this promise. Truly honoring G-d and his Torah would be to honor ALL inhabitants while TEACHING, not threatening, others about it.
22. #15 - and many rapes occur in secular society
William ,   Israel   (03.02.12)
Do you get the point, myopic Haim? You are just as disgusting as the very intransigent on the religious side. They are your fellow citizens and deserve to be respected just as seculars. What you're saying is they don't because you don't like them. No wonder religious families have such an issue with seculars! They do indeed have a point, just as you do. And hopefully, coexistence will win out. Seculars have a ton of social problems going on and yet we still accept your ilk in the Jewish State.
23. #17 - and here's an author that disputes that
William ,   Israel   (03.02.12)
This author, a religious woman, clearly stated her actions to respect seculars and their lifestyle, while denouncing those from her community who do not. You owe her a great deal of respect, for she and many haradim who work or serve in the army, do not accurately reflect your hateful tirade. Many seculars try to get out of army service. Many Arabs try to to get out form paying taxes. Yet your scorn is with the haradim - mostly because of the liberal media attacks on them, I suspect.
24. #13
A Jerusalemite ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (03.02.12)
So Mr. Blum, why do you live in the USA?
25. To number 13
Josh ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (03.02.12)
If the "Jewish Kosher" nature of the state of Israel is of such great importance to you, why is it you live in the USA? The basis of the Jewish state is the fact that Jews live here, serve in the army here, pay taxes here and build their lives here. Without the Jews living here, religious or otherwise, there would be no state in which we could argue and disrespect each other!
26. Woww!! - Kol HaKavod, Dina
Jay Engelmayer ,   Modiin, Israel   (03.02.12)
What we need more than busses, supermarkets and cafe's on shabbat is what you just showed - understanding and tolerance. If we can have that the rest will sort itself out to everyone's agreement.
27. Beautifully written
Susan ,   Raanana, Israel   (03.03.12)
It takes a lot of courage to publically write what you did, Dina. I am sure there are those who will wag a finger on both sides. This just proves the point - that mutual respect is needed. This is not just an issue about Judaism. As a completely secular humanist, I would not insult my hosts by wearing shorts if invited to a religious Jewish, Muslim or Druze household. If I had a vegetarian guest, I would respect that and serve an appropriate meal. When I hosted a professional meeting where there would be religious women, I bought paper plates and ordered kosher. When invited to a religious ceremony, no matter what religion, I go and respectfully sit or stand but do not say the prayers. These are examples of respect. These are universal laws which apply to everyone - laws of humanity. #2 - not to throw stones is a "compromise?" Sorry. Throwing stones, beating up or spitting on people, threatening or using any weapon (including rocks which can kill) is a felony. Susan
28. Wow, I cannot believe what I just read
Roman ,   IL   (03.03.12)
This is the article I was HOPING to read but NEVER saw in the paper. This is indeed a dilemma between Israel being Jewish or Democratic as these two rarely coincide. One side would always feel giving up more than other when it comes to compromise. I agree, minority should not be implying how the state behaves to majority. If the majority is more secular then haredi should compromise... Great article!!!
29. gideon levy
marcel   (03.03.12)
israel has enough problems on its plate. who arabs pray to is their business and levy should stay the hell out of it. If syrians want to criticize their god, that is their business. But jews should shut up about other people's religion. Levy, haber, olmert, amir oren-they are all the same, lack ofcombat and real war experience, and idealistic arrogant writers whose articles usually are worthless and don't help israeli readers one bit. If syrians want to debate islam amongst themselves, that is their business. jews years ago stupidly adopted chosen people which has been a bloody albatross around our necks as other religions resent it.And of course jews could not be chosen. Look who are the chosen-olmert, livni, ramon, peres, amir oren, levy, ramon, beilin. This is what you call chosen??!! I call these guys prove precisely why jews who have a good religion are absolutely not chosen, not better than anyone else, not at all.
30. Total hypocracy.
L ,   Earth   (03.03.12)
What a load of hypocritical wish-wash. Mekareved to the max? You sound like the Christians of the US saying the same things basically.
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