Skirts out, radicalism in
Yizhar Hess
Published: 28.06.12, 11:35
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1. Orthodox Judiasm has been hijacked
Israeli grandma   (06.28.12)
I also remember how girls and women were once full members of the human race, and given respect in the Orthodox zionist community. I too am disturbed by the over-emphasis on "modesty" for little girls as described in the article as a social sickness absorbed by the community as a result of so many Haredi women teachers, and Beis Yaacov trained workers in the Mamlachti dati system.
2. It's either the extreme leftist or extreme orthodox.
Iranian Hunter   (06.28.12)
Tough choice, the extreme left wants anarchy and headlines on newspaper, and be a symbol of the oppressed, they loves that kind of headlines. The extreme orthodox wants a jewish Israel, orderly and morally strict, really strict. The problem is, the orthodoxs are the one that is boosting the population, the leftist prefer abortion rights and population controls. In the end, the orthodox will win out simply because it's better in the long term, a leftist Israel would be consumed by the middle east and becomes arab. Honest observation.
3. Can someone explain
Chaim   (06.28.12)
why secular men in general can dress decently and basically modestly but secular women must get dressed half naked? Even in the coldest climates these women make sure that half their buttons of their tops are open so that everyone see their fat ugliness? Why don't secular men in higher positions, ministers for instance, walk around sleeveless and half naked and only secular women even in that position are lacking respect for themselves.
4. Masorti movement priorities
Shlomo ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (06.28.12)
Whenever I read an article by anyone from the Masorti movement, it always spends a long time bashing Orthodoxy, and little to any time saying which religious priorities the movement DOES support. What does it mean to be Masorti? Does it simply mean to be nonreligious? Does it mean to be like Orthodoxy was at some imagined ideal point 40 years in the past? I wish I knew.
5. Bring back womens lib
Love child ,   SF USA   (06.28.12)
6. well, it seems to work
Yair ,   Beer Sheva   (06.28.12)
just look at yourself: in this wonderfull Bnei Akiva form 30 years ago, your parents became secular. Today in this radical Bnei Akiva, people remain religious. Why change a winning game?
7. dress? that is what makes the difference?
Golan ,   modiin   (06.28.12)
My wife looks haredi, I look secular. We both keep Shabbat and eat kosher. She only eats the ultra expensive and otherwise worthless glatt. I eat kosher and unlike her I read the Talmud. And yet her only complaint against me is that I do not wear a smartut on my head as if that makes a difference. So with all due respect to the penguin dressing kossack looking brothers of mine, just because the secular wear a pictures of the mass murderer Che Guevara, that does not mean the inappropriate dress in Israel is modest. Rather the "religious" flaunt their haughtiness with wigs, smartutim, hats, and sleeves so long that our bare armed foremothers of the bible would have thought funny. But why should I care? I still walk in Bnei Brak like a proud Jew and not an 18th century gentile.
8. Moderate Jews will disappear?
Aviel ,   Galuth   (06.28.12)
What once was the moderate & modern Israeli national religious scene begins now to remind of Islam. I'm sad to state that the more I read and hear about this happening in Israel the more I feel alienated from my country and definitely do not miss anymore the religious life there.
9. Extreme disease asks for extreme...
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (06.28.12)
remedy.The morality of the secular society was never as extremely "free" as it is now.
10. Bnei Akiva
Marc ,   Beit Shemesh   (06.28.12)
Interesting that a women whose parents dropped out of the dati leumi world is so obsessed with the Bnei Akiva world. My children go to leading dati schools in Beit Shemesh and Jerusalem without any of the dark waves of extremism that Ms. Hess described in her article. Modesty is not a bad thing as itself and upholding halachic principals for boys and girls is certainly something that the dati leumi community has high regard for. Exremism is troublesome but it seems that Ms. Hess has lumped all people who uphold halacha to be extreemists. BTW, maybe if her parents had decided to stay dati leui she would understand better.
11. Dressing modestly is TRUE JEWISH PRIDE not radical at all
Chaim   (06.28.12)
Unfortunalty, the non-religious have completely thrown away anything having to do with Judaism; Torah, mitzvot, tradition and even modesty. Baruch Hashem they're waking up slowly but surely.
12. #2 Amen Amen Amen You described it very well.
Chaim   (06.28.12)
13. Yizhar Hess you are a radical!
To spit-out such hate for people who want to cover their elbows, and grouping all zionist religious people as fanatics sis ridiculous. WE are religious zionist, who care about halacha, educate our children for torah v avoda, and are contributing members of society. I expect your apology!!!
14. the last sentence says it all
israel israeli ,   tel aviv   (06.28.12)
I recommend that everyone read Hess' with a large pinch of salt. Hess is a well-paid CEO of the "Masorti Movement" a Leftist political group masquerading as a religion. Their own website admits they are funded by the rabidly anti-Israel "NIF", the folks who also funded the violent riots of last week (according to Channel 10) and the "Shovrim Shtika" organization that provided the false testimony of IDF war crimes used in the Goldstone blood libel. Hess is paid a salary to parrot the NIF line.
15. To: Chaim, #3
Scarborough1414 ,   Scarborough, Ont.   (06.28.12)
You're being extremely judgmental. A woman should be able to dress as she pleases and men should accept that. This over-emphasis on modesty (tzniut) is just a weapon used by the Orthodox to control women and attack seculars. If the Orth. win, we will be Hebrew-speaking Arabs. What's next, female circumcision?
16. Count my blessings
R Narz ,   Toronto   (06.28.12)
Every time I get feeling that maybe life in Canada is toooo complicated, that there is toooo much contradiction to put up; well, all I have to do is surf onto this website and find out. Not only is it far more complicated and convoluted in Israel, it is steadily becoming more so, not just a static thing.
17. This is stupid
Ber ,   Yahud   (06.28.12)
The orthodox view is a bit more complicated than women are dangerous sex objects, and their voices adbominations. Why not call your self a tribal propagandist with a agenda based on deep psychological irrational emotions and prejudices stemming from the reptilian brain, like all the rest.
18. Decency, not radicalism
Javaid Rao ,   Islamabad   (06.28.12)
Well, it is decency and not radicalism, if looked at from an Eastern culture. Probably, those who are new, must understand and hope, will be able to identify some o the good practices. Though initially, it seems rather tough
19. Calm down
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (06.28.12)
I attend an Orthodox shul. No, I do not sit with my husband and my sons. I do, however, sit with women who are attorneys, judges, physicians, surgeons, CEOs, business owners and the like. I would caution the author of this silly little piece not to worry. Is there a lunatic fringe in Judaism? Yes. Every religion has them. But they are not the mainstream. Not even close. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And don't worry about Judaism. Do keep in mind that even more than Jews keeping Shabbat is the fact that Shabbat has kept the Jews. The line was drawn a long time ago, and it is very well maintained. Trust me. By the way -- were anyone someday to object to my singing, they would rue that day. I have a VERY good voice. Which I don't mind using.
20. perfect point!
ariel   (06.28.12)
21. #15 my post was a question regarding the EXTREEME difference
Chaim   (06.28.12)
between women who seem to have no self-respect and secular men who generally dress normally.
22. Masorti religous coercion
Mordechai   (06.28.12)
So the head of the Masorti movement believes he has the right to force people to follow his beliefs that oppose Jews following the halachot of modesty. Next thing he will be trying to have any woman who wears a dress not showing off enough leg to be arrested.
23. Where is the source to allow women to sing
Mordechaio   (06.28.12)
As the Masorti movement claims to follow halacha can Hess show the source that the Masorti movement relies upon to say a woman is allowed to sing in public in front of men. If she can't then this is a major statement from the Masorti movement officially abandoning their claim to follow halacha
24. 19 Lunatics HAVE taken control. Uneed2 spend more time here
Thinking Jew ,   Israel   (06.28.12)
25. Why deal with content when its so easy to slander author?
Israeili Jew ,   Israel   (06.28.12)
26. Chaim @ 3, there is not much to explain.
leo ,   usa   (06.28.12)
Each individual is free to make personal choice. Women are wired to make themselves look attractive while men are wired to make themselves look presentable. Once you grasp this simple fact of Nature everything else falls neatly into place.
27. Ideas "in the air" vs. the sheer force of numbers
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, USA   (06.28.12)
I too remember the Israel of 40 years ago. Jerusalem was a more mixed city than it is today - with many more secular and traditional Jews and not so many "black hats". Kippa-wearing soldiers at the Three Day March through the Judean Hills didn't absent themselves from the night's entertainment which included secular entertainers - even a Japanese group with (gasp!) female singers. The Conservative rabbi at one synagogue in DC wasn't one I generally looked up to, but he saw before I did the rise of religious extremism in the region following the Islamic Revolution in 1979. It was something "in the air", as was the trending toward mysticism in the 17th century, affecting not just Jews, but some Christians and Muslims as well. One thing undeniable is that growing numbers can affect one's inclinations and behavior in a mutually reinforcing fashion. Once upon a time (actually just a few decades ago), the number of Muslims in the West was small. They wouldn't dare demand Hollywood rewrite their scripts so as not to "offend", or march in solidarity with terror groups, or demand special accommodation to their customs and values. Now they've got the numbers. Similarly, 40 years ago the haredim were a small minority among Israel's largely secular and traditional Jewish population. They had their neighborhoods, but had to ride the same buses as everyone else, get along on the streets with others, etc. They behaved as they would in New York or London. But as their numbers in Israel have grown, they're becoming more assertive, and the fringe is pulling the mainstream in their direction. NOW they're demanding gender segregated buses, no women singing, "modesty" at public celebrations (like the bridge opening in Jerusalem) and more. Because now they've got the numbers.
28. #23: Where is the source in the Torah
PaulZion ,   Israel   (06.28.12)
that says women cannot sing? What was Dvorah doing in the Torah when she welcomed home the victorious army of the Israelites? How did the "Tof Miriam" get its name, if not by women singing and dancing? Your fundamentalism shows just how sick, sexually repressed and obsessed you are. To think hearing a woman sing would drive you into a sexual frenzy that you could not control your urges is ridiculous. If that truly is the case, then it is you men who need psychlogical treatment. The Middle Ages are long gone. Get over it, or go live in a fundamentalist country - Iran.
29. Put the ad up on YouTube, please!
Former BA'nik   (06.28.12)
30. women singing
mike north ,   karmiel   (06.28.12)
If Masorti folllows halacha and if the Shulchan Aruch is its handbook-just look under the the subject of modesty
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