Opinion
Goodbye, occupation myth
Hagai Segal
Published: 13.07.12, 10:48
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61. To N 59, Alexander
Luiz F Haddad ,   Niteroi, Brazil   (07.13.12)
Dear Alexander. I agree with you, but not totally. Judea and Samaria were, only, Jewish territories, during old times. Nowadays, much more Arab than Jewish people are its dwellers. They have rights, and Israel, for me, is a beloved State because of her good and humanistic principles. Listen, my friend. Me, and other Christian Democrats, are at your side. We will never change it. Israel, of course, needs redrawed borders, and Jerusalem is her eternal and undivided Capital. Nevertheless, Arab Palestines can't be expelled. It would harm very much Israeli immage around the world. I am sure your Government and your Knesset know it a lot. Then, don't take people like me as "enemies". On the contrary. Exactly for being a friend, I dare to make comments, through Ynet, in order to collaborate. Warm Salutes.
62. God is a joker ,...
split ,   US   (07.13.12)
First he gave a piece of wasteland populated with indigenous and stubborn people to a bunch of a nomadic converts and non-believers from another part of the world then added a bunch of schnorrers and stupid judges and is having a fun since ,...
63. 60 - The Fact Israel was ready to give up
split ,   US   (07.13.12)
Obviously - Google "Palestinian loss of land 1946" and let us see ,...
64. Re #14 - Solution
Michael ,   Boston   (07.13.12)
If all of Judea and Samaria become part of Israel, the only solution is for Israel to become a true Torah state. In that case apartheid would not apply and the demographic issues of having as many or more Arabs would also not apply since it would not technically be a democracy. Interesting how this is the only actual feasible solution
65. #37: No, the author says what must be said
Daniel ,   Formerly Israel   (07.13.12)
I understand why you believe him arrogant, and if you read the article carefully you will see that he himself foretells that people like you will, understandably think what he says is a load of trash. But what he speaks is the truth, and there is no other way for Israel (and the Palestinians) to dig themselves out of their mutual hole except by telling the truth. Too long the history of the conflict has been twisted in ways that would make Geobles proud. Too long have the aggressors been called victims and the victims aggressors, too long peace has been called war and war peace, too long treaties and their violations have been forgotten, and agreements that were never made deemed to be inviolable. I have no time now to recount to you the nature of the original mandate of Palestine in 1918, nor the fisal-weitzman agreement of 1920, the massacre of Hebron's Jews in '29, and the sacking in 1949 of Jewish Gush Etzion in the West Bank and Kfar Darom in Gaza; the PLO's founding in 1965, the Egyptian-Jordianian agression pact of May 1967, the "three nos" of the Khartoum conference in October of that year, and Arafat's three-phase destruction plan of 1993. But all of this and more needs to be talked about, it is the source of the current situation in the region and a foreshadowing of the future. These things have been forgotten by the "civilized"world, but that does not make them any less true, nor the need to remind it of them any less urgent.
66. The real Occupiers are the "Pals!"
Benny ,   Iran   (07.13.12)
The so-called "Pals" - they cant even say it right -- are the real occupiers in Israel. Just like refugees from Darfur sneak in daily for a better life in Israel, so did all these Arab Bedouins, sneak in to fly away from their oppressive regimes. They only know murder, mayhem, lies, deceipt because the Quran teaches them "evil acts." It is time they opened up their eyes & study history . All they have to do is read the greatest documentary "From Time Immemorial." It shows Arab,Muslim, British leaders discuss in great details of almost zero presence of Arabs in the 1920's in Jerusalem.Judea, Samaria area.
67. Now will the leftist Jews hating MORONS please shut up!!!!!!
TRUTH Wins ,   as ALWAYS   (07.13.12)
You never knew sh*t about international law and you still don't.
68. Just to clarify
Me   (07.13.12)
"convince the gentiles" is somewhat an expression, and yes, it does sound a lot better in Hebrew. It's not meant to offend anyone.
69. The gentile s already say that for years...
Anna M Sedda ,   Rome   (07.13.12)
The so called christians Zionist,gentile s and Bibble reader s agre e that Israel can and should build everywhere in Giudea and Samaria.... We Are waiting for Israel to' do it....
70. To PaulZion # 51
FO ,   Belgium   (07.13.12)
Of course it is a difficult situation. but a crucial one. Claiming Israel's rights obtained by International Law 90 years ago, and disowned by a majority in the Zionist (was this majority still Zionist ?) movement, will not be an easy affair. It will require the best legal experts, jewish and none-Jewish in Israel and abroad. It must become clear to all, that any future decision regarding the so-called West-Bank will be decided by Israel, in accordance with International Law and humanitarian aspects. But let's be conscious that Israrel's future is at stake.Nearly hundred years ago, a majority of the Zionist movement betrayed Herzl's ideology, being blinded by Marxism and Bolshevism. The man who became President of the World Zionist Organization till 1933, Nahum Sokolow, wrote in his two volume "History of Zionism", published in 1917, the following: "It has been said, and is still being obstinately repeated by anti-Zionists again and again, that Zionism aims to the creation of an Independent Jewish State. But this is wholly fallacious. the Jewish State was never a part of the Zionist programme. The Jewish State was the title of Herzl's first pamphlet, which had the supreme merit of forcing people to think"...Rejecting at that time the creation of a Jewish State, as voted unanimously by the League of Nations a few years later, had as consequence the tragedy of the Shoah ! So this time no more blunders that may put Israel's survival at risk.
71. To: No. 37
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (07.13.12)
It's pretty arrogant and ignorant of you to assume that Israel cares what you think. Particularly since you do not even know how to spell "Israel" correctly. Moreoever, support for the State of Israel among the American people is extremely high. By contrast, Americans have an extremely negative view of the ersatz "Palestinians." I suppose their violent and terrorist inclinations haven't helped. Finally, Judea and Samaria are not "occupied." The State of Israel ended the occupation when it liberated Judea and Samaria in 1967. I guess you're not much of a student of history.
72. To: No. 55
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (07.13.12)
The Levy Report examined the political issues. Religious matters never entered the equation.
73. To: No. 63
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (07.13.12)
In 1946, the only people considered to be Palestinians were the Jews. Arabs were always just called "Arabs" or "Bedouins." The ersatz "Palestinians" did not invent themselves until 1964. Moreover, you are forgetting partition. The Jewish people accepted partition; the Arabs did not. They chose to go to war instead. They lost. Sometimes, it sucks to be an Arab. Of course, that does not explain why the ersatz "Palestinians" rejected subsequent offers for a two-state solution including, most recently, one which would have awarded them 95% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as a capital. They rejected the offer in favor of starting the second intifada. Of course, that did not go terribly well for them, but it was their choice. I guess when it doesn't suck to be an Arab, it REALLY sucks to be an Arab. But make no mistake -- the ersatz "Palestinians" have always been the architects of their fate. Israel is not going to go away. The ersatz "Palestinians" simply refuse to accept this very basic fact. Seven decades of poor choices have taught them nothing. But that would be their problem; not Israel's. And some decisions cannot be undone.
74. #3 - the "civilised" world is your litmus test?
William ,   Israel   (07.13.12)
Didn't the "civilised" world once ignore the real threat of Hitler, deny the findings of Galileo, and tacitly accepted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Doesn't many of the "civilised" world continue to believe some global conspiracy in banking, heading by Jews, to control the planet? and that despite all of the threats and actions against Israel and its civilians for over 6 decades, that Arabs really want peace, and that the settlements are the obstacle? Truth be told, most of the "civilised" world is stupid and lazy. Very few take the time to understand a complex situation, let alone develop a real opinion on it. Those tadpoles who feed on instant soundbites are hardly the group one would use to dictate global policy. For instance, the ICJ didn't rule that the settlements were illegal, they provided only a non-litigated opinion on the subject which ignored the 1949 ethnic cleansing by Arabs, which IS a war crime. The ICJ was specifically asked to make a judgement on ONLY the settlements as they are, with limited information, and limited scope, for a reason. Just like when Abbas demanded the ICJ rule on "Israeli war crimes" and ONLY Israeli actions, or Abbas would pull his request and support for the ICJ. Did you get all that, "world citizen tadpole"?
75. #4 - didn't they all vote in "Palestinian" elections?
William ,   Israel   (07.13.12)
Why should they vote in Israeli elections? Canadians don't vote in US elections, do they?" "Palestinians" do not have a country (as stated yet again by the ICJ) therefore they are not occupied. They voted for their own representation under rules of autonomy to govern their daily lives, yet they do not have sovereignty. That is reserved for final status talks with Israel, according to UN charter and previous agreements the "Palestinians" themselves signed.
76. #6 - 1947 Partition Plan was rejected by Arabs
William ,   Israel   (07.13.12)
who launched an illegal genocidal war. That negated any 1947 agreement. The only one that legally stands, and was accepted globally, was the 1922 Balfour Declaration. Further, the 1967 lines, which is based on the 1949 Armistice Lines were never to be used as a border nor as a basis for discussions of a border, per the agreement. Therefore, unless the Arabs make peace with Israel immediately, in order to negate the Armistice Agreement, any talk of 1967 lines is illegal.
77. Sanremo is a non starter
Avramele   (07.13.12)
San Remo Resolution - April 25, 1920 It was agreed – (a) To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the process-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine; this undertaking not to refer to the question of the religious protectorate of France, which had been settled earlier in the previous afternoon by the undertaking given by the French Government that they recognized this protectorate as being at an end. (b) that the terms of the Mandates Article should be as follows: The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22, Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognized as independent States, subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The boundaries of the said States will be determined, and the selection of the Mandatories made, by the Principal Allied Powers. The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 8, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. As you can see San Remo open to many interpretations and both Jews and Arabs can quote relevant clauses. A non starter moving forward. And didn't BG coin the phrase oom shmoom.. So let's not get so legal about a tragic conflict that calls for a smart compromise.
78. Charedim leaving
Enoch ,   Toronto   (07.13.12)
Could you please shut the door behind you?
79. To all commentators
Harold ,   USA   (07.13.12)
As soon as Israel leaves all occupied lands and goes back to the 1948 borders all problems stop and people, Jews and Arabs, talk about peace only. No more wars, F-16, suicide bomers, and threats from both sides. GIVE PEACE A CHANGE.
80. That means the apartheid era has begun
David ,   San Francisco   (07.13.12)
First of all, this right wing Israeli government APPOINTED the judge and jurists- it wasn't an independent investigation. Netenyahu himself appointed these idiots! And what they say does not matter, its what international law and the international community thinks, not what some right wing zionists think. However, if the land is not occupied and never was occupied, this means that Israel IS an apartheid nation. So time to work towards one state with equal rights for all citizens- including every Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza.
81. Confusion
Bertram ,   London, UK   (07.13.12)
What utter confusion sown by almost evryone here! You are even confusing yourselves. Each one of you brings an argument citing 'international law', 'who was here first', declarations and agreements, and goodness what else to support a firmly held position. This is because rational debate is useless when confronted with ideology and/or religion. A bit of honesty and self-reflection wouldn't go amiss. If you want to see the destruction of Israel, think about the consequences - for everyone, especially against the background of the historical persecution of Jews. If you want to expel all Arabs to other countries - should they want to take them in - think of the consequences for all concerned. And if they don't want to take them in - then what? These issues require reasoned discussion and, it is to be hoped, resolution.
82. to those mentioning San-Remo conference
Eugene ,   Israel   (07.13.12)
It has nothing to do with any state borders or "state sovereignty", it merely reprises Balfour declaration that recognizes Jewish right to settle in then Palestine. It also mentions that the right of non Jews are to be preserved, meaning local Arabs have a right to settle in anywhere Palestine as well ! Only the 47 partition plan actually refers to the partition of land to national states. Arabs' refusal to land partition was a grave and stupid mistake, but it doesn't cancel the partition plan and doesn't annul the right of Palestinians to this land, something that many Israeli governments chose to ignore. Calling Jordan a Palestinian homeland is plain stupid, neither Jordan accepts it and neither do Palestinians, we have no right to deprive anyone of their national identity, the Palestinians are Palestinians and that's never going to change. The fact that Palestinians started the 48 war may win us some "points", but considering it a nullification of 47 partition plan and the rights of Palestinians certainly doesn't bring us any closer to the conflict resolution. Anyone believing that we have the right to this land because of bible and god, please ask him to appear in the un and settle this once and for all..if you are sane then you most probably realize that we only have this country because SECULAR Zionist Jews were clever and hardworking and had a clear vision.
83. de facto/ de jure
Daniel ,   Tel Aviv and DC   (07.13.12)
The law is actually on the side of the current ruling. In purely legal terms, Jordan was the occupying force. There was never a Palestine. The West Bank was liberated in 1967. But in practice the Israeli government has essentially admitted they are an occupying force. The world views Israel as occupiers. More importantly the way the world views the native Arab peoples of these lands (note: native Arab--not Palestinian) is as refugees. The refugee status has crossed generations borders and been conferred upon people who marry into the group. Were they to suddenly have to become Israeli the country would lose its Jewish identity. Were they sent to their rightful country (in law), Jordan could lose its identity. Ergo, sad as it is, a two state solution must be devised.
84. excellent article
(07.13.12)
85. #3 No, no, in reality.
Jake   (07.13.12)
Who holds the cards?
86. #6, The UN Partition Plan was a "recommendation"
Jake   (07.13.12)
not a legally binding document, and it did not give birth to the State. It was rejected by the Arabs, and the UN Security Council, instead of confirming it into international law, passed a Resolution authorizing the General Assembly do go back and reconsider the future of Palestine. The UNGA appointed a Mediator, but came up with nothing binding. Israel came into being in the vacuum that was created by Britain formally abandoning its Mandate, not under any UN administration or trusteeship, which was never created in the wake of Britain's departure. As for the Yishuv "accepting" partition, this was done "in principle", but David Ben Gurion made damn certain never to stipulate the boundaries of the State in any document that would be legally binding on Israel. Israel skillfully avoided binding itself to the proposed partition boundaries, or to the requirement that an Arab state be concurrently established.
87. #8, Go read 4th Geneva Convention, Art. 49
Jake   (07.13.12)
Which these "other legal experts" claim forbids settlements. A child could read it and tell you that it refers to forcible "deportation and transfer", and cannot possibly apply to the priniciple of voluntary settlement. The "legal experts" are motivated by political interests, and nothing more.
88. #55, No portion of the Land of Israel may be sold in perpet-
Jake   (07.13.12)
perpetuity. That is one of the Mitzvoth of Judaism. Sovereingty over the Land may not be permanently ceded to another people than the Jewish people. It's Jewish land. Deal with it.
89. The myth was spread by Jerrold Kessel, from CNN.
Moshe ,   NY - US   (07.13.12)
90. #16
Jonathan ,   MN/US   (07.13.12)
Sarah, there are serveral problems with your "repatrition" plan #1 numbers: acording to statistics taken by israel there are over 2 million palestinians in the west bank it isnt going to be easy to move that many people #2 the Palestinians: the idea that the palestinians will go along with this willingly is stupid #3 Jordan: the idea that Jordan will go along with this is even more stupid and i guess your thinking " if Jordan refuses to accept the palestinians they will face sanctions" unless everybody decides that this isnt worthy of their time
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