Godwins law AND cheaping the deaths of over 7 million people, is there no low you WONT sink to?

A great slap on your face and truly deserved!!!

Please, please do not try to inject realistic and rationale thought into the confusing mix, it's so much more fun waiting for a surprise ending You know, kinda like watching a Hitchcock film.

Who the hell is Jordan to "not accept" the fact that the Jordanian state exists on 75% of British Palestine. Jordan was a huge part of the Arab-Israeli conflict since its inception, and they must be part of the solution. So long as Jordan shirks its responsibility to resolve the Palestinian problem, so can Israel.

DO NOT FULFILL THE COMMANDMENTS

1. That is absolutely absurd. Do you have any idea of the numbers involved in the assorted repatriations following border changes that resulted from World War II? Two million is nothing. Following World War I, when so many national identities changed, the numbers of repatriations were in the dozens of millions. 2. The decision is not up to the ersatz "Palestinians." A sovereign nation has an absolute right to determine which foreigners may or may not live within its borders. Israel is a sovereign state. It really does not get much simpler than that. 3. Jordan does not have a choice. And while everyone recognizes Israel's absolute right as a sovereign nation to repatriate foreigners (whether they admit to it publicly or not), Jordan will have a great deal of difficulty explaining why they do not wish to absorb Jordanian citizens in their significantly underpopulated nation. If you knew anything at all about history, you would know that Germany was very reluctant to reabsorb millions of ethnic Germans following World War II (from France, Czechoslavakia, Romania, Ukraine and Poland). They didn't have a choice. Italy was forced to absorb two million ethnic Italians when the province of Istria was ceded to Yugoslavia. There's plenty of precedent. The "king" of Jordan is half Iraqi, half British. He probably does not want people to start wondering why he is the ruler of a country where the overwhelming majority of the population are ersatz "Palestinians." 4. Try not to guess at what I'm thinking. You do not have the requisite intellect and you certainly do not know enough history.

I'm honoring the memory of the Jews who perished during the Holocaust while the so-called "civilized" world stood by in silence. If you think that pointing out that the so-called "civilized" world is not at all civilized when it comes to the Jewish people -- certainly not during the Second World War and even less so, now, with the constant harping about the State of Israel while ignoring all manner of terrible conditions in so many other places -- is "low," then too bad for you. I'm tempted to ask why you are so defensive, but I'm really not that interested.

Recall that the War of Independence was fought because the Jewish side accepted the partition plan, preferring to have half the territory in which it could be self-determining by virtue of having a majority of the voters. The Arab side rejected the partition, preferring to have one state, including the entire territory, in which it would be the majority. If the panel claims that the West Bank is not occupied, because the Balfour Declaration and the British Mandate gave the Jews the right to settle there, then it is in essence claiming that the West Bank is Israeli territory by virtue of Balfour and the Mandate. (The West Bank must be either occupied territory or Israel territory - it cannot be both at the same time). However, both those documents require that the civil rights of the existing non-Jewish population in the area must be protected. If Israel claims the territory based on those documents it must fulfill them entirely, and grant civil rights and citizenship to the Palestinians living there, otherwise, not only will the legality of its claim be in doubt, but it will become an apartheid state. And thus we will have, very shortly, a 23'rd Arab state named Israel, just as the Arab side wanted in 1948 (at least until a majority of the voters of said state decide to change it's name to something more appropriate - perhaps Ismael, for example

I an glad to hear a few wise men declare boldly what is written in the Tanakh by the ONE who gave the Land of Israel to the Jewish people. We Christians in America who believe the Tanakh, rejoice with each new Jewish settlement. Judea and Samaria are occupied by Arabs.

#86 The partition plan was the first time where a Jewish state received international recognition, it was an historic moment and Ben-Gurion accepted it fully, including the part that mentions an Arab state. Ben Gurion and many others knew that the war was imminent, but he never rejected the idea of Palestinian state entirely like the right wingers are doing now, while incorrectly and selectively citing various documents. Even without it being actually binding the resolution reflected the international understanding at the time, and no-one actually demands Israel to go back to 47 as there is a recognition of the fact that Israel defended itself in the 48 war. #87 - Article 49 (6) states "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." #94 - The Jordan is a national entity with a big population of Palestinians, but it is not a national home for them. Every nation has a right to self determination, but Palestinians aren't allowed theirs according to the right wingers. The Palestinians in Jordan are actually full time citizens of Jordan, can you say the same about Palestinians in the west bank ? Of course you cant. And some other thought, us Jews also lost a military conflict a couple of thousands years ago and were expelled from Eretz Israel, yet we wouldn't allow anyone to deny us our national identity and ties to this land, so i believe we shouldn't do it to other nations as well, even if they did some horrible mistakes.

Not only have Jews lived for 4000 years in Israel - including the territories called Judea, Samaria and Gaza, but international law as well validates our position. WE Jews have not stolen anyone's land, we Jews haven't "driven" any "Palestinians" out - it's our Jewish homeland. Our Jewish ancestors lived in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. The fact that more Arabs dwell in Judea, Samaria than Jews does not mean Arabs have historical or legal rights to either claim these lands for themselves or to dwell in them. Englishmen have conquered Ireland for centuries. Parts of Ireland had an English majority population. That doesn't make Ireland English property. Arab demographics should not and cannot be used as an excuse to allow Arabs to dwell there and claim our lands. The Arabs need to go - either voluntarily or by force. They have 22 Arab states 1.5 times bigger than USA. There is only one logical reason why gentiles around the world insist on keeping the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and that is to punish my country forever and make life unbearable for Israelis/Jews - from a demographic, territorial and security point of view. There is no other reason. Sure Arabs have civil rights, but no national rights and they cannot be allowed to live in our land. This is not debatable Luiz. This is a question of life and death for the Jewish state. I thank you for your support - and don't misunderstand - I do appreciate your support, but this status quo situation can't go on forever. The world insisting on Israel keeping the 1949 (pre-1967 lines) armistice lines (they are no borders -merely armistice lines), inisisting on Israel having a 15 km wide waist and being surrounded by 22 Arab states that want us dead - this situation Luiz will explode. It can't last. This situation causes stress and anxiety in Israel. This situation will not last - even if this will harm Israel's image around the world -something I and many Israelis, Knesset and the government included, know perfectly well. But if you have to make choice between maintaining a good image and safe guarding your existence and security on a permanent basis, which would you choose?

Well Daniel, that's the problem. More than 80%, possible more of Jordan's population IS "Palestinian" and the Jordanian and "Palestinian" flags are almost identitical. The British reneged on the legally binding documents of San Remo of 1920 and the Anglo-American treaty signed 3rd of December 1924 in London UK, and severed 78% of the Jewish land and turned it into the Kingdom of (Trans-) Jordan ruled by the Saudi Arabian Hashemite family in the early 1920s. Jordan was a sandpit with almost zero population. No "Jordanian" identity or nationality has existed in history - in similarity to the non existent "Palestinian" identity. Jordan can't "lose" a Jordanian identity it never had, so it would make no difference if "Palestinians" would move into "Jordan" - de facto 78% of our Jewish homeland. There is already a 2 state solution. It's called Israel and Jordan. Jews like yourself are the reason why Israel always finds itself in self denial and in a situation of self hatred and humiliation. Who the hell cares what the Jordanians want? If they won't accept the "Palestinians" we will make them accept them whether they like it or not. Israel can easily force the "Palestinians" leave and Israel can de facto easily force Jordan accepting them. The big mystery is why a Jew like yourself agrees by your free will, to strip Israel of its historical, political, legal and territorial rights where Israel is limited to indefensible Auschwitz borders surrounded by 22 anti-Semitic Arab states. Because that is the truth.

"Each one of you brings an argument" No just the truth and simple facts. What "arguments" do you have? "citing 'international law'," Israel has international law on its side. Do you think violating international law is reasonable? Accusing Israel of violating international law is a common sport of non Jewish anti-Semites like yourself. But when it is proven beyond all reasonable doubt that international law does support Israel, international law is apparently no longer "important". "'who was here first', " Called HISTORICAL RIGHTS - forms the basis even for the existence of UK. Neither Mongolians nor Aztek Indians nor the Russians can claim the UK. "declarations and agreements, " It's normal to stick to agreements and to stay true to one's word. "and goodness what else to support a firmly held position." This is no "position". That is probably your most moronic statement so far. When UK defends it's right to exist when confronting a lethal enemy hellbent on UK's right to exist, UK bringing up its history and legality is no "position" - its self defense. And since you yourself are "Jewish" how do you explain your existence in this world when you negate your history and origins? "This is because rational debate is useless when confronted with ideology and/or religion." What is rational is to speak the truth. Your statement has no rationality but delegitimizing Israel's right to exist as a Jewish nation state with a majority Jewish populaton within defensible borders. This has nothing to do with either ideology or religion. Claiming one's right to exist and claiming that one has equal human, civil, national and territorial rights among all nations, to embrace life and reject death is simply a normal human reaction. It has nothing to do with either ideology or religion. But you yourself haven't suggested anything nor refered to any facts whatsoever.

i just may move there afterall if they leave

Ben Gurion may have accepted the partition plan IN PRINCIPLE, PRIOR to Israel's declaration of independence, but it was never confirmed as a legally binding document by the Israeli government, and Ben Gurion skillfully prevented it from being binding upon Israel. Formalizing the Partition Plan would have stripped Israel of Jaffa, Lod, Ramle, Acco, the western Galilee, the northwestern Negev, and above all, Jerusalem, with its Jewish majority. Thanks for citing the 4th Geneva Convention, whose words have been twisted to declare voluntary settlement "illegal". It is a profound deriliction of the law.

Judea and Samaria belongs to the Jewish people. Their arabs living in Judea and Samaria migrated to Judea and Samaria due to the economic opportunities provided by the Jews to the arab migrants. These arabs belong to the arab nation and are citizens of that nation. Jordan illegally occupied Judea and Samaria from 1948 until 1967. Jordan illegally and forcibly transferred all Jews out of Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem after the War of Israeli independence. Jews have every right, have a better right than anybody to live in Judea and Samaria. At this time there is no need to extend Israeli sovereignty to Judea and Samaria. Arabs have complete autonomy in Judea and Samaria, except for the right to form an army and murder the Jews. Arabs have their own autonomous government and the right to vote for that government. Nobody in Israel supports the right of the arabs to form an arab terrorist state in Judea and Samaria, except for those few Jews who want to commit suicide. Most Jews, like me want to keep living. Golda, Begin and Shamir were totally against an arab terrorist state. Rabin, Mr. Oslo, never supported the creation of an arab terrorist state in Judea and Samaria. Its that simple.

We have been wondering what were the government's real motivations behind the commissioning of the Levy Report. Most likely answer: To have another document backing Israel's right to the land. But instead of using it to extend sovereignty over all of Judea and Samaria (West Bank to many of you), the government will use it to just annex the major settlements and gift the rest to the PA to do with it as they please. The lesson of Gaza is lost on the present government.

1. Again, your knowledge of history leaves much to be desired. The Arabs in 1947/1948 had absolutely no intention of co-existing with Jews. Their declared intention was to "drive the Jews into the sea." In any event, the Arabs lost, and the rest is history. Which cannot be undone. 2. I do believe you have forgotten (or never knew) that all of Mandatory Palestine was non-sovereign. Israel, of course, is a sovereign state. But Judea, Samaria and, for that matter, are non-sovereign. The rules that apply to sovereign territories do not apply to non-sovereign regions. 3. Your argument is not sustainable. In 1954, Jordan granted citizenship to all West Bank Arabs, and their progeny, irrevocably. The ersatz "Palestinians" illegally residing in Judea and Samaria are Jordanian citizens. They are not stateless and they never had any right to reside in Judea and Samaria in the first place. Period, full stop. Following full and formal annexation of Judea and Samaria, those ersatz "Palestinians" will become illegal aliens, and will be repatriated to Jordan. What part of that do you not understand? 4. You're overlooking one important fact. Judea and Samaria, which had been illegally appropriated by Jordan, was restored to Israeli control following Israel's victory in the Six-Day War. Which is to say that the intent of the San Remo Conference has been fulfilled, and the non-sovereign territories which had always been intended to be part of the Jewish State, came under Israeli control. The ersatz "Palestinians" are NOT stateless. They are Jordanian citizens. The granting of citizenship may have been an ill-thought move by Jordan, but The Hague has consistently ruled that an irrevocable grant of citizenship is precisely that -- irrevocable. Israel does not have to tolerate the presence of undesirable aliens within its sovereign borders, and it really does not matter who does or does not recognize the borders. Do you have any idea how many border disputes there are in the world? I'm betting without researching the topic, you cannot name any of them. 5. This is the best opportunity for statehood that the ersatz "Palestinians" will ever have. Why should a monarch who is one-half Iraqi and one-half British rule over a population that is well over seventy percent ersatz "Palestinian?" With the influx of the repatriated Jordanians from Judea and Samaria, the monarchy in Jordan can be toppled, and the people can rename the country whatever they like. And if they behave nicely, they will find a great deal of assistance from an unexpected source -- Israel -- much the way Israel did so much for the Arabs in Judea and Samaria between 1967 and the creation of the ersatz "Palestine" Authority. If they don't behave like a good neighbor -- well, Israel is certainly not without options.

1. The ersatz "Palestinians" in Jordan are Jordanian citizens. 2. There were very few people living in Palestine prior to the First and Second Aliyot. Only when the Jews started to reclaim that barren and desolate place did it become desirable, and Arabs flocked there in droves. Most of the ersatz "Palestinians" come from the Hejaz in the Western Arabian desert; quite a few come from the Balkans; the balance are Egyptian, Syrian and Iraqi. 3. The eternal bond between the Jewish people and the land of Israel (Am Israel; Eretz Israel) has been forged over 5,700 years. The ersatz "Palestinians" descend from nomadic Bedouin tribes who spend as much time fighting one another as anything else -- just look at the fractious rabble that are the ersatz "Palestinians" today. 4. It is a matter of some debate if Article 49(6) of the Geneva Convention can be applied to non-sovereign territory. That said, since the only occupying power in Judea and Samaria since Ottoman times has been Jordan, why are you giving them a free pass with respect to all of the civilians that it transferred into Judea and Samaria? But it is all moot in any event. All Arabs residing in Judea and Samaria are Jordanian citizens. 5. "Horrible mistakes?" It that your euphemism for six wars, all started by the Arabs, and seven decades of unrelenting ersatz "Palestinian" terror, visited against Jews both in Israel and in the Diaspora?

All who live in the Unoccupied Territories must be given the vote and full civil rights.

Get a reality check. Peace has been given a chance over and over but most Muslims want to make Israel disappear. Too many concessions have been given in the hopes of peace, but it is a false peace and the terrorism does not stop. I do not blame Israel for making a stand. It seems that no matter what is done, the problems will persist until all of Israel declares to יהוה blessed is He who comes in the name of יהוה (Psalms 118). The right hand of יהוה was made known to Israel but the corrupt and power mongering rabbis of that time would not acknowledge Him (Matthew 23). As time goes by and things get worse most will start to believe and understand.

"I'm honoring the memory of the Jews who perished during the Holocaust" So thats what you call using the holocaust to support your position?

Why should the Jewish State give the Jordanians of Judea and Samaria Israeli citizenship? Many of these people have acted with extreme violence against Israel with intent to destroy it. Furthermore, from these same people came those who committed the vicious homicidal bombing that took many Israeli lives.The fence and other security measures have reduced the opportunities for such murder.The nation of Israel has the basic and essential right to protect its citizens against those who threaten its existence. If the Jordanian Arab residents of Samaria and Judea do not support peace and security for both the Jewish State ,they can always move to Jordan of which they were physically a part until June, 1967. In addition, since these people are Jordanian,expelling them to their own homeland for purposes of Israeli security would not be illegal.

And what "occupation" are you talking about? Occupation according to International Law means that State A has conquered State B as a result of war. No "Palestinian" state existed in 1967, 1949, 1948, 1947, or 100, 200, 500, 1000, 5000, 10.000 or 100.000 years ago. You use the invented "Palestinian" people as an excuse to hate and destroy Israel. You care nothing for the "Palestinians". 1) Why is "Palestine" a Roman/Latin name? 2) Why is there no letter "p" in Arabic? 3) Nationalism is alien to Arabs who have, for 1400 years, lived as nomads and Beduins in multi-ethnic and multi-racial "Arab" empires whose majority population - locals, subjects, soldiers, mercenaries, scientists, mathematicians, physicians and merchants, were no ethnic Arabs, merely Arab speaking Persians, Kurds, Turks, Jews, Berbers and Africans. Why is that? 4) There is no "Palestine" in the Bible or the Koran. Why? 5) The Bible and the Koran BOTH admit that Israel is the Jewish homeland. How come? 6) Jewish/Israelite history started 2000 B.C.E in Israel - 4000 years ago. Arab history of the original Arabians, started in the 7th century C.E. 1400 years ago, in the southwestern corner of the Arabian peninsula, hundreds of kilometers away from Israel, 2600 years AFTER the start of Jewish civilization. How can Arabs be the "natives" of Israel? 7) Most Arabs arrived in Israel as recently as the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. How is that ancient history and how does that make "Palestinians" the "natives"? 8) When and where exactly did a "Palestinian" state, republic, nation state, kingdom, city state, duchy, principality or empire exist in recorded history, what are the names of kings and dynasties, cities, towns, villages and currency and why is there not a single ancient civilization mentioning anywhere any "Palestinian" state, civilization, nation or people? ANSWER MY QUESTIONS or get lost.

Most of human history, the concept of international law and international acceptance were non existent abstract concepts. Israel, India, China, Persia and Greece are examples of ancient civilizations that pre dated international law and "international recognition". Most European states existed prior to international law. The world's recognition or lack thereof does not constitute the basis for any country's right to exist. It's a perverted idea in international law that you need to ask other countries for you right to exist. Ben Gurion could not have rejected nor accepted a "Palestinian" state since the "Palestinians" invented themselves in 1964. Before 1964 and primarily before 1967, the Arabs called themselves Arabs or Jordanians or Egyptians. "Article 49 (6) states "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." It proves Eugene you don't understand international law. The 4th Geneva Convention speaks of FORCEFUL TRANSFER to another country's territory. 4th Geneva Convention deals with states. "Palestine" is no state. Israel is not forcing Jews to move into Judea and Samaria. Jews move into these territories by their own free will. Therefore deport or transfer is not an apt term for Jews who freely move into Judea and Samaria. The 4th Geneva Convention is therefore not applicable. "Palestinians" can have their national right of self determination in Alice in Wonderland. How can a non existent "Palestinian" people claim a land that never belonged to them? Read my talkback nr 41. Of course the Arabs of Judea, Samaria are no citizens - that would be demographic suicide for Israel. Let the Arabs move back to Jordan for starters. If you admit Eugene that we Jews lost our ancient homeland, why not take it back and why not expel the very Arab enemy that is currently dwelling on our forefathers' land?

Israel controls the territory and no one else will decide for it. Jews are the majority in Israel and will not accept anything less for a peace deal. It will not accept any Palestinian right of return into Israel or give the Palestinians citizenship in Israel. Palestinians are dreaming if they think otherwise. Either Palestinians negotiate a peace deal that leaves a Jewish majority Israel or they will have the status quo.

...for one people - the Jewish people, in the Land of Israel - Eretz Israel, between the river and the sea - WITHOUT any invented fake Arab speaking Moslem invading, imperialist, colonialist "Palestinian" squatters with zero history and zero national/political rights to our land and with zero legal rights to claim our territory. That is NOT debatable. I don't want peace with the Arabs that interfer with our land and our freedom. If Arabs want peace they need to accept our lives, freedom and land. As long as they claim one, two or three of them, there will never be peace. If there is supposed to be peace, ALL "Palestinians" MUST pack their bags and leave Judea, Samaria and Gaza permanently, and the surrounding Arab states must absorb them into their own countries. A peace deal will be made between Israel on one hand and the 22 Arab states and Iran on the other hand. "Palestinians"? Sorry, they don't exist and they don't belong in our land. Anything that rejects that is nothing short but a declaration of war.

Sarah B's "political position" or should I say normal, sane human instinct of self preservation - which is no artificial political "position" , is meant to defend our rights and our equality among all nations in case your intellect can't handle that Jonathan. It's not a political debate club - we are not discussing raising or lowering taxes or where the local school will be built - we are discussing Israel's survival - no small thing. Sarah B just like myself and other patriotic Jews/Israelis, descendants of the ancient Israelites want to protect our lives, our freedom and our land - OUR land based on 4000 years of Jewish history and international law. And Sarah B was refering to the Holocaust as a reminder to the Jewish people that 1) placing our lives and security in the hands of others is dangerous and lethal and 2) since the "civilized" world massacred 6 million Jews it begs to question just how "civilized" the "civilized" world really is - the same world that daily attacks Israel verbally in mass media, on TV and in newspapers and at public political press conferences and elections. Because massacring 6 million Jewish men, women and children in cold blood is not "civilized" - it is satanic, devilish, animal like, demonic behavior - a monstrosity of human behavior. At another thread a few weeks ago, you told me that the "entire world" speaks of "Palestinians" and that "Palestinians" call themselves "Palestinians" and that Israeli governments of the past called them "Palestinians" and that "there is nothing you can do about it". But you failed to answer my questions. Read my talkback nr 41 or 114 in here. WHO and WHAT are the "Palestinians" and WHERE DO THEY COME FROM? Yes we can change lies with the truth. Much of the world doesn't know the truth yet. But soon they will. Israelis call them "Palestinians" in a slovenly manner but that doesn't make it right. Most Israelis agree that there IS NO "PALESTINIAN" PEOPLE IN HISTORY. And the Arabs can call themselves "Palestinians" as much as they wish but their lies will vanish in the face of the truth. They cannot distort the truth and 4000 years of Jewish history in Israel. You Jonathan are an anti-Semitic racist genocidal ideologist.

You clearly miss the point of my post. perhaps via ignorance perhaps on purpose. Jews like me are practical. We recognize that Jordan while just as Palestinian as Israel will not allow people to be repatriated. They had "refugees' from west bank there since 1948. They have never been given Jordanian citizenship. Jordanian identity is as real as Israeli identity. It is a "Hashemite" kingdom (they are Iraqi but there you go). Now you would have Judea and Sumeria as Israeli territory? What would you do with these Arab people living there? Give them Israeli citizenship? Try and force Jordan to repatriate them? exterminate them? There is only one solution give them the land they currently occupy and be done with them. Israel maintains its integrity . Jordan maintains its integrity and the first and only Palestine will come into existence. Israel created this issue by not forcing the expulsion in 1948 and 1967 as the Arab states did to their Jewish population. The past can't be changed but the future can be better. This is not stripping Israel of anything but an internal Arab problem.

Israel should remove those checkpoints n walls n u would prevent the sucide bombers or kidnapping of soldiers n civilians may be if people like u volunteer n guarantee Israelis of their safety may be they will remove those aparthies stuffs unless they think they r on threat it is their right to do whatever necessary to safeguard their citizens maybe first step would be to stop QASSAM rocket attacks will u volunteer Mr Smart Ass regards