Opinion
Ghosts of the past
Daniel Schatz, Ruth Deech
Published: 27.08.12, 18:16
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70 Talkbacks for this article
31. To nr 10 - Poles massacred Jews during WW2
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
Poles massacred Jews in several villages and cities during WW2. Many Polish resistance movements refused to have anything to do with Jewish resistance movements merely because they were Jewish. The Polish language is riddled with anti-Semitic expressions. Poland still refuses to give up stolen Jewish property. What exactly has the Jewish people done to Poland and what exactly have Jews taken or stolen from the Poles? Because the article confirms historical facts: Poles stole property from Jews - not vice versa.
32. To nr 15
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
Germans should compensate Jews for killing 6 million Jews - a moral debt that can never be paid and the financial debt of stolen Jewish property at an estimated value of $300-400 billion dollars. Germans should compensate Poland for the German massacres on Poles, German invasion of Poland and occupation of Poland. But Germans and Poles should both compensate the Jews. If there is someone who is out of his mind that's you. It seems there is an abundance of clueless morons at Ynet that don't know one thing about the past. Get yourself an education.
33. Polish Jew - Why did a "Polish
Mark ,   US   (08.28.12)
Communist Government" come into power in the first place? Well the Russian of course, but had it not been for Germany starting WWII everything would likely be very different. Wouldn't you agree?
34. #21 - True of course....but it
Mark ,   US   (08.28.12)
was nothing more than a puppet Soviet government. History has shown Poles are not communists at heart. Poles did what they did wil NKVD guns to their backs. Poles would have more than thrilled to have free democratic elections after WWII, wouldn't you agree?
35. Alexander - You missed an important
Mark ,   US   (08.28.12)
point. The vast majority of the the property confiscated was done so DURING the war when Poland did not exist as a nation date. Should they be reponsible for occured during the German occupation? Seriously? The German's should be held responsible, they were "governing".
36. The thinly veiled threats against Poland
Tomek ,   Poland   (08.28.12)
uttered by Schatz and Deech are nothing new. The same blueprint was followed to shakedown both Germany and Switzerland. Bringing a bigger bully, the US, along has also been tried and tested. Before Jews cheer them along, though, just check how the money extorted from the Swiss has been managed. If you, as an individual, claim ownership of a property, you go to court to prove it. There is no other way.
37. It's not like Americans are about to compensate the Indians
Edithann ,   USA   (08.28.12)
As an American, I wouldn't want to be subjected to Indians whining and harassing me for compensation... We whites may have stolen their land, but that was a really long time ago. We're the ones who built a civilization here, not them... Time for you guys to roll with the punches too... TATA
38. Poland nationalized these properties!
Polish jew   (08.28.12)
You seem to miss an important point. The Nazis took the property from Jews, but instead of returning properties to their former owners after the war Poland NATIONALIZED these properties. They thus have an obligation to return them.
39. # 2
Miriam ,   Miami, USA   (08.28.12)
If you are referring to the West Bank. Please read history. West bank belonged to Israel. In 1948 there was a war and West Bank ended up in Jordanian Hands. When was this land ever Palestinian? Was there ever a country called Palestine?
40. to Alexander and #2
Justine   (08.28.12)
1. "Palestinians are not a people" - what does it have to do with individual' property rights? 2. "It's not their land" - again, nothing to do with individual property rights. 3. "They left voluntarily" - so what? So did most Jews in post-war Poland. Yes, I know about Kielce, but it was still voluntary. Even after Kielce tens of thousands of Jews choose to remain. It's only in 1968 that there was a campaign to make them leave. Ultimately there's only one "argument" - the Palestinians or Arabs lost the war. Poland doesn't expect to compensate the Germans either.
41. to Alexander - Polish language
Justine   (08.28.12)
"The Polish language is riddled with anti-Semitic expressions" - Care to elaborate? I'm a native speaker and I know one - "zydzic" which means to be cheap or stingy. But it's rare and nobody I know uses it. A Moroccan once told me that if they accidentally knock something down, they say "it's a Jew's fault". Nothing like this in the Polish language. So what are those anti-Semitic expressions the Polish language is "riddled" with?
42. Article's weak points
Justine   (08.28.12)
I'm surprised the authors didn't mention the Euro 2012 soccer tournament in Poland and Ukraine, apparently it cost billions of dollars ;) Yet, some ideas in the text are bizarre. 1. GDP or foreign investment have nothing to do with it. Do authors expect the Polish government to take foreign investors' money and use it to pay former owners?? The issue is budget. And if my memory is correct, Poland is running deficits, trying only not to break EU rules in this regard. 2. I'm surprised the article only talks about Jewish owners. What about ethnic Polish owners? That doesn't merit any attention? The Polish government made it clear many years ago that the solution, if ever will be one, will encompass all Polish citizens whose properties were nationalized. There will be no separate procedure for the Jewish owners. 3. There is a lot of moralizing in the article. "A wrong was committed. The wrong must be remedied." Sure. Great. Only the authors forget that the war and years of communist rule created so much destruction and lost opportunity that it might not be possible to compensate all those who were wronged without placing an unjust burden on those who live now. And that's often the case in history, especially (ironically) when there were a lot of those who were wronged. The same goes with debt - countries pay if it's not too much of a burden. If it is...they shrug and default. I don't know how much of a burden it would be for the Polish budget compared to other countries. Maybe more, maybe not. That's the kind of research the authors could have done instead of just uttering moralizing statements. But I know that reprivatization is not popular in Poland - even when it comes to compensating ethnic Polish former owners. 4. The authors talk about survivors. What they do not mention is that at some point the organizations that negotiate those settlements asked for compensations for all property owned by Jews in Poland whether the heirs were alive or not! The money would then not go to survivors (since there weren't any) but...to those organizations. Legally, there is no precedent for such a solution and needless to say the Polish government wasn't thrilled. I don't have a definitive opinion on the issue. Some people say it would be good because it would solve some property-rights problems. But I can see why people in Poland aren't enthusiastic.
43. Polish jew @ 38 ,...
split ,   US   (08.28.12)
Not Poland but imposed communist government infested with Stalin's Jewish executioners ,... By the way Polish courts are open to those with proper proof of property ownership ,...
44. To nr 30: Flawed logic and obvious misunderstandings
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
I never said Poland is Jewish property. Read my talkback again. I said, again, and I have to repeat myself, that Jews should be compensated for stolen private property. We Jews have never claimed that Poland is our land. When Arabs want "compensation" for land, they don't mean private property - they mean claiming and taking over Israel. While Poles compensating Jews for stolen private property through financial transactions to Jews will not destroy Poland, Israel giving up its land to Arabs would definitely destroy Israel. I hope you see the difference. Learn to read and things will become much easier for you. I'm speaking of private Jewish property - not Jewish national rights in Poland. Poles have stolen Jewish property - from loyal and law abiding Jewish citizens that posed no threat to Poland. "Palestinians" or Arabs were involved in an armed conflict against Israel - their intention was to erase and destroy their host country - the Jewish State of Israel from within - that's why the Arabs deserve no compensation. The Arabs of Israel tried to destroy us and our country with arms and military might. They failed. Jews were expelled from Poland and ethnically cleansed simply because they were Jewish.
45. To nr 35 - Mark - stop twisting and rewriting history
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
And stop defending the Polish people. They must be held responsible for their actions. The Polish Communist state confiscated and nationalized Jewish private property DURING the Cold War - not during WW2. Stop blaming the Germans all the time. Germans have a tremendous debt to us Jews but Poles have a tremendous debt to us Jews as well. I'm not blaming the Poles for Germans stealing and confiscating Jewish property during WW2. I'm blaming the Poles for moving into houses that used to belong to Jews, and the Poles did move into those Jewish houses DURING WW2. And Poles did massacre Jews DURING WW2. The Poles didn't have to do that and claiming that the Germans "forced" the Poles to do it is nonsense. And during the Cold War, the Polish Communist state confiscated Jewish property. It has AGAIN - NOTHING, ZERO, to do with the Nazis. We Jews blame Poland for stealing and confiscating our property and we blame Germany for killing 6 million Jews. Poland has a very long time ago lost its legitimacy to exist as a state and nation. Such an evil and malign people such as Poles only understand their own language - when Poles themselves will be treated the way they have treated us. Justice will be done. Victory to Israel.
46. To nr 36 - Poland is a corrupt and undemocratic state...
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
....and its state authorities and legal courts are corrupt. Poland is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. Jews should go to Polish courts? You're kidding me right? Jews should go to a corrupt anti-Semitic Polish court consisting of "lawyers" that given the chance and turning back the time to 1939-1945, would probably join the Nazis in killing Jews? The EU commonly agrees that Polish authorities are corrupt. In simple English it means if you bribe Polish "lawyers", things will get done. Bribery in Poland sets things in motion. I'm convinced that all the legal documents that prove Jewish ownership de facto exists and are well documented in Poland. The problem is that you don't want to repay your debts to the Jewish people! The Polish nation is a nation of thieves, liars and mass murderers. Poland should be bullied every day until you freely give up what is our property. I wish the Polish people, from my heart, what you have wished for us Jews for centuries. And to conclude dear Pole: Jeszcze Polska nie zginela ale jeszcze nie za pó'zno.
47. to Alexander
Justine   (08.28.12)
Thank you Alexander for showing your true colors. That will go into my collection of quotes showing that some, on the Jewish side, are not better than Polish anti-semites. Meanwhile, don't count on Israel bullying Poland. Israeli officials go around repeating what a good friend Poland is and Israeli businesses invested billions in Poland.
48. #44 double misunderstanding
#30   (08.28.12)
"I never said..." No, you didn't and you got me wrong. I meant Jewish private property in Poland as well. Nobody claims Poland itself is Jewish property. "... they mean claiming and taking over Israel." If you are referring to the 'Palestinian right of return', then I agree with you. This would be the end of Israel and therefore it is logically unacceptable. My question was, do Palestinians (the peaceful ones, those who accept Israel's right to exist, etc.) should have got the right to possess private property in Israel; or do they *generally* shouldn't have the right.
49. #46
Tomek ,   Poland   (08.28.12)
Alexander, are you for real or are you just a composite caricature of a Jewish bigot?
50. @ 45-46
Konrad ,   Warszawa   (08.28.12)
Unbelievable rant. Am not sure: should I laugh or, perhaps, puke? No regards, K.
51. "with the problems of poverty and old age"
split ,   US   (08.28.12)
Did they work and serve in Israel, did they contribute for their medicare and retirement fund? To blame anyone else for your survivors poverty and problems after all those Billions extorted from Germans and other nations is an insult to those that didn't survive ,... Up to 2007 WJC Claims Conference was bragging on their web site: "As a result of negotiations with the World Jewish Congress the German government has paid more than $50 billion in indemnification for suffering and losses resulting from Nazi persecution. Our negotiations have also resulted in the creation of special funds for Holocaust survivors and Holocaust education from the Austrian Government, German and Austrian industry and many other European nations" ,... Take a note that they don't mention those Billions received from Swiss Banks ,...
52. To nr 40 - Completely flawed logic
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
Jews left Poland voluntarily after WW2 because most of the Jews saw no future in such an anti-Semitic country. The very basis of a future survival of the Jewish community in Poland was undermined and Jews feared for their lives and security. Arabs on the other hand left Israel voluntarily - not because Israel threatened them, but because the Arab leaders of the surrounding Arab states wanted to prepare a massacre on Jews and promised the Arabs a speedy victory and speedy return to Israel. The Arabs' attempt failed. Why should Poland compensate the Germans? Compensate them for what? What should Israel compensate the Arabs for? You mean financial transactions for privately held/owned Arab property? Forget it. The Arabs left Israel because they threatened our survival, meanig in simple English the reason the Arabs left Israel is due to their wrongdoings against Israel, its because of the Arabs' war crimes and anti-Semitism inside Israel in 1948 and 1949. We will not condone anti-Semitism, we will not condone attacks on our state and country and we will not condone ethnic minorities from within attacking our country's mere right to exist. For that reason, the Arabs of Israel that were expelled were no victims, but perpetrators. That goes both for the Arabs who left Israel voluntarily and Arabs who were forced to leave by the IDF. Individual property rights should be respected when the citizens are loyal and law abiding citizens. The Arabs of Israel in 1948-49 were not. And again: what has Israeli self defense against Arab aggression to do with Polish confiscation of Jewish property? The anti-Semites always bring in the "Palestine" argument. We know that you don't care about the "Palestinians". It's about hating the Jews - and denying Jews compensation. PS: the Arabs don't want "compensation" for private property. They want to claim Israel. Jews don't want to claim Poland, but merely to be compensated financially for lost property. Stop twisting and distorting facts.
53. To nr 41
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
Yes - "zydzic" is one of the expressions I'm refering to. To me as a Jew, that's an extremely offensive expression. Are you some how condoning this word's mere existence? Are you supporting it? Do you like it? Or will you fight it and will you fight anti-Semitism in Poland? "But it's rare and nobody I know uses it. " You claiming that doesn't mean it's true. "A Moroccan once told me that if they accidentally knock something down, they say "it's a Jew's fault". " Yes it again proves that Poles and Moslems have several things in common such as medieval, racist and backward anti-Semitism and biased attitudes against Jews. That's probably why there are hardly any Jews left in Poland or the Moslem countries. When I said the Polish language is riddled with anti-Semitic expressions I meant explicitly that Poles swear, curse and express bias and prejudice against Jews/Israelis - no matter if you use distinct expressions for that or simply speak badly of the Jews. That's what I meant. I've been to Poland and I've heard Poles, many Poles speaking badly of Jews. And books in bookstores reveal the same anti-Semitism again.
54. Never failed to make my jaw drop to the floor ,...
split ,   US   (08.28.12)
You have a nerve to point a finger at others and demand anything after what you have done to Palestinians ,... By the way no one invited them there and almost all of them were illegal infiltrates and unwelcomed squatters - The number of Jews in Poland was a by-product of a partition of that country among three neighboring powers that took an advantage of the fact and got rid of their 'own' Jews by making them move and settle in Poland against native's wishes. At least you have admited that there''re no Jews in Poland and they're prospering despite their absence ,...
55. 53 ,...
split ,   US   (08.28.12)
I suggest you google 'Antisemitism: Its History and Causes' and read first 13 lines of chapter one instead of pointin a finger and running your mouth - By the way 'zydzic' doesn't mean nothing in today's Polish vocabulary ,...
56. To nr 47 - And what are my "true" colors?
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
Israel and Poland has good business relations - that's true. However official Poland, the state, is "pro-Israel" but not the people of Poland. I'm speaking of the people of Poland. And yes the Poles deserve their destiny. If you don't know the difference between Poles unprovokedly hating and killing Jews, and Jews wanting justice - meaning punishing the very Polish nation that is responsible for those crimes against Israel and the Jews, then you clearly have no moral character. If you can't for example see the difference between Nazi German annihilation of 6 million Jews on one hand, and Jews wishing to take out their revenge on Germany, then you really have no moral character. Me wishing Poland bad things is directly related to Polish past and present behavior and attitudes to the Jewish people. Poles hate Jews because we are Jews. I wish Poland a really bad destiny not because you have Polish blood in your veins, but because of your behavior to the Jewish people. If Israel and the USA will decide to "bully" Poland to financially compensate the Jews, it would probably happen whether you like it or not. In the civilized world, people should be compensated when they are being robbed or stripped of their belongings. It's actually quite amusing to read your "arguments" for why the Polish state can steal Jewish property and still claim it has no moral or legal responsibility to return the property or financially compensate for it. Why Ynet focuses on Jewish property? Maybe because Jews care first and foremost about themselves - just like Poles care first and foremost about themselves? After all, Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, so the concerns of the Jewish people comes first, non Jews come second.
57. To nr 48
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
"No, you didn't and you got me wrong. I meant Jewish private property in Poland as well. Nobody claims Poland itself is Jewish property." Ok, so we seem to mutually agree and fully understand this point. "If you are referring to the 'Palestinian right of return', then I agree with you. This would be the end of Israel and therefore it is logically unacceptable. " It seems we agree on this one as well. "Palestinians" by the way Justine have never existed in history. When in history has there ever been a "Palestinian" state, kingdom, nation state, city state, duchy, principality, empire, kings, dynasties, palaces, temeples, cities, towns and villages, race, tribe, ethnicity, nationality or identity? The "Palestinians" are multi-ethnic Arab speaking Moslems of German, Italian, Greek, Bosnian, Albanian, Turkish, Kurdish, Iranian, Egyptian, Somalian, Sudanese, black African, Afghan and Tartar origins, arriving in Israel primarily in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. Not only are the "Palestinians" not a distinct ethnic national group of people - they are not even the same nation. They have no common history neither inside nor outside of Israel. Since the Arab world cannot defeat Israel militarily, the Arab world use them ("Palestinians") as pawns to geopolitically and demographically conquer Israel. I just think you should know that. They are hostile and they pose a demograhic threat to us. We will not accept them in Israel. I'm glad you realize that. No Justine. We can't grant the "Palestinians" anything. They are Arabs. Stop using the word "Palestinian". They are Arabs - have zero history and connection to our land. If LOYAL private Arab citizens should be allowed to hold private property in Israel? Of course. Did it escape your notice that 1.4 million Arabs live in Israel?
58. To nr 50 - I guess truth hurts your Polish ego?
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
It's about time that we Jews show you Poles your rightful place. Millions of Jews still remember the evil and malign attitudes of the Polish people toward the Jewish people. We want justice and justice will be done. Israel still remembers what our Jewish countrymen have experienced in Poland. In Israel, Poland is almost synonymous with anti-Semitsm. If you don't like Jews and Israel, why do you pay a visit to an Israeli newspaper then? Maybe indicative of your Polish schizophrenic nature? You hate Jews but you can't stay away from them - right? If you laugh - it means you are a fool. If you puke, it means you have nothing better to say. Like your country. Criminals and people who know their guilt can ony try to ridicule the victims' demands of justice.
59. To nr 49
Alexander ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (08.28.12)
Dear Tomek, The day when your country is dead and buried and erased from the earth, that day will be a day of celebration of the Jewish people. Stop whining and take responsibility for your actions. Poland's greatest enemy is Poland itself. Only Poland can blame itself for it being hated by the Jews. And to conclude dear Pole: Jeszcze Polska nie zginela ale jeszcze nie za pó'zno. The sooner the better.
60. @ 58
Konrad ,   Warszawa   (08.28.12)
Well, one usually laughs at a clown's antics. But one might want to puke when a clown (or, if you'd prefer: an idiot) takes upon himself the role of his nation's spokesman.
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