The Jews left behind in Russia
Michael Freund
Published: 27.11.08, 00:58
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1. 5-generation convert rule
Ben ,   USA   (11.27.08)
Where's the angry old man who constantly reminds us that you're not a true Jew until you're the 5th-generation descendant of a convert? The Ynet articles on conversion usually invite a visceral talkback or four from him. Maybe he has friends in the Israeli rabbinate, and they determined that the vast majority of the Subbotniks are only *4th-generation* descendents of converts. Close, but ... no dice, so sorry. 4 is just not equal to 5. Four generations? Too bad. Wait, what about Ruth? Naomi didn't tell Ruth to go take a flying leap and maybe, just maybe, her great-great-grandchildren can become Jews. If she did, King David, a *great-grandchild* (count 'em up, that's only 4 generations!) of Ruth, would not be considered a Jew. Can't have that happening, can we??? Also, I don't think there's anything in the Talmud that says "5 generations OR ELSE".
2. Subbotnik Jews
nelson daniels ,   toronto, canada   (11.27.08)
I thought the article was about Russia impeding Subbotnik aliya, I was horrified to learn Israel is the culprit!! Have they forgotten what Zionism is all about?
3. Once again, Freund is deceiving
Jake   (11.27.08)
The Subbotniks are, in fact, "Judaizing" Christians who are Slavic Russians. Both Russia and Israel consider them to be ethnic Russians, not Jews.
4.  Subbotnik Jews
zdunska ,   LA, USA   (11.27.08)
What is the difference between Subbotnik Jews and Subbotnik Christians?
5. they must religious Jews because those are the kinds
Zippy   (11.27.08)
of Jews that really terrifies the government. After all, the gov't allowed the "Jewish russians" in before, and now Israel has neo nazis. The real question is who in the government are real Jews---in their souls---- because the way they run Israel and terrorize their own citizens--allowing rockets to terrorize and continuing the sick joke of the "peace process". Giving up land---and continuing to feed and fuel the Jewish people's enemies---nobody can tell me these are real Jews. So they must keep the count of real Jews in Israel low.and their seats in the gov't warm.
6. Like the other fake-Jew pork eaters?
Bennie ,   Jerusalem   (11.27.08)
Sounds like a few more boatloads of the other fake-Jew pork eaters that infest cities such as Ashkelon and Ashdod, converting children, building their churches, bringing treif Tiv Taam to destroy our Jewish communities.
7. Torah states you shall love the convert...
Josh   (11.27.08)
...for you were greeem in mtzriam. Apparently the words of God take a back seat to rabbinical cults. I am sick of the reverse treatment of converted Jews from what Moses told the Heberew converts they should do in the future. Clearly people don't know a cult when they see one. We know what the Rabbis are teaching is not prophetic. Time for Jews to re-examine Devarim 13. You shall not add nor take away from the law. Love the convert and fear the curses.
8. 600 thousand gereem left egypt
Josh   (11.27.08)
When Jacob and his sons went to Egypt they took all those they collected to their houses with them. The lived in Goshen with their wives their slaves and the converts that cleaved to their tribes. Among the Hebrew (those speaking ibri) that left and converted when they accepted the Torah, were non blood related parts of the tribe. Those who say leave them, get over yourselves. The number of slaves, wives taken and converts likely equaled or surpassed the number of blood related children. You are just as likely to be a descendant of a non blood relative as to be in the blood line.
9. Bennie: "destroy our Jewish communities"
Josh   (11.27.08)
With all the stealing, magic incantations, heathan objects and talismans, uneqal weights, breaking of Shabbat, and a host of other major violations not being addressed, you pick a dietary law to criticize? I agree One God, but I would bet you sit in a Bet Cafe and let somone work on Shabbat for you. Lets fix our problems rather than fear mongering on the fourth generation Russian converted Jews.
10. Yeah yeah, all very sad
Kim ,   Israel   (11.27.08)
But Israel is already becoming like the Kremlin. We want a Hebrew speaking Jewish state, not a Russian one.
11. Israel was founded as a Jewish sanctuary #6 #10
Avinoam ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (11.27.08)
It cannot deny Jews entrance*. This is it's primary function. (* with some extreme exceptions: Jews who deny their identity, vicious criminals.) #6 Eating pork does not relieve you of your Jewish identity. Converting Jews to Christianity is however not desirable. #10 It hardly matters what language they speak. You can hardly expect them to speak Hebrew before they arrive. To the author: you don't see the conflict of interests reporting an article about a "petition filed on behalf of the Subbotnik Jews by Shavei Israel, the organization that [you] chair".
12. to #10
SR ,   Israel   (11.27.08)
I would say Israel is becoming more like New York, flooded with English speakers.. But why does it even matter???!!! Isn't the Jewish State of Israel open to ALL the Jews from anywhere in the world??!! Why such hatred towards Russian Jews? What have they done to you?? Perhaps there is a jealousy factor involved...
13. #2 You seem to have forgotten as well
Talula ,   Israel   (11.27.08)
14. #6 - Bennie In Jerusalem shame on you
Avi ,   Ramat Gan   (11.27.08)
"fake-Jew pork eaters that infest cities such as Ashkelon and Ashdod" Someones Jewish identity is up to the individual. For some its dressing up in black and becoming an ultra orthaodox jew, for others its making apple and honey cake in Rosh -ha Shana. How arrogant of you to insult others , judge and slander based on your small minded conception of what a jew should be. We are all entitled to express our jewish identity in what ever way is meaningful for us. If someone wants to eat non-kosher , thats their choice as much as it is someones choice to live by all the commandments, but to judge and slander really is hatefull .
15. #12
Kim ,   Israel   (11.27.08)
What? are you stupid? Jealous of what? Intelligent people coming here and cleaning floors and toilets? Becoming alcoholics? Not working? Can't find jobs? Man, you are really quite a stupid ass. You should really keep quiet now - you clearly have nothing to say.
16. Can we do a swap?
liz   (11.27.08)
Maybe we can swap - a planeload of "observent Subbotnik Jews" for a planeload of the "goyim who once sneezed in the presence of a Jew" who currently live in Israel and were accpeted as Israeli citizens under the law of return, but who are not really jews at all.
17. We don't want more Jews in Israel
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (11.27.08)
The future Palestinian Arab State of Israel already has too many troublesome Jews. President Peres won't be able to join the Arab League if we let more Jews into the country.
18. 60% of russians in Israel are not Jewish
Sherry ,   Israel   (11.27.08)
They came here for the $$$ given to them at the airport - then they went and got drunk on vodka, bought cars they couldn't afford to run and our country isn't the same since they came!!!
19. #18 Sherry. What a bigoted statement.
Terry ,   Eilat, Israel   (11.27.08)
All the Russians I know served in the IDF & are more patriotic than a lot of native-born Israelis I know. They may not be very religious but neither are most Israelis. And many who are not Jewish would convert if the process was not so difficult. Yes, we got a few ''lemons'' but the vast majority contribute greatly to this country.
20. jews
av ,   london.uk   (11.27.08)
only the shepharades are jews anyway ,the askenazims are convert russians
21. num 18
av ,   london.uk   (11.27.08)
number 18 you 100% RIGHT
22. #15
SR ,   IL   (11.27.08)
I am sorry, but you sound like 10 year old. Those intelligent people who come here and work on dirty jobs, most of the time are above the age of 45, which makes it harder for them to learn Hebrew and even when they do manage to learn and try to advance, nobody would hire them due to the racist reasons (people like you) and their age. It is also very "smart" to call all Russian immigrants - alcoholics.. Tons of Russians come here and actually get jobs, work really hard in order to make money and have a good life. Re: not finding jobs - stupid again, Americans and other immigrants can't find jobs either, because the job market here is really poor. And the last argument is, it is not very intelligent or polite to insult others based on different opinions or anything else. I can definitely tell that you haven't gone through Oxford or Cambridge (that is if you even heard of those) and definitely did not acquire your International relations (or any other relations) degree.
23. Bigoted Jews everywhere
Petra ,   usa   (11.27.08)
a shame there isn't more affection for those Jews who wish to live as Jews. They face hardships in Russia & now, even Jews in Israel don't want them. my my. Aren't we smug and shallow? That any people choose to be religious in a communist country is brave. Seems that 'real' Jews would allow other Jews to perish w/o a thought. Sound familiar? Why not put them on a new St. Louis? You might as well.
24. Petra, darling - pity you don't come & live here with them
Talula ,   Israel   (11.27.08)
Our country isn't better off for having them here. It's static. There is an increase in vodka sales though. However, some Russians that came here truly love this country - they serve in the army and they work. Others are here for other reasons - but they didn't tell them at Ben Gurion airport upon arrival. You seem like a nice enough person, but you can be a little obsessive in your moaning about MY country. You need to concentrate on making your own country better, not mine.
25. Petra I agree. Smug and shallow
Josh   (11.27.08)
In reality, the return of the Jews is prophetic in nature. Jews should be dancing in the streets for Hashem has reigned, Hashem reigns and Hashem will reign. Instead they who take sides against igonor Torah and the path it describes of returnees. They set their tongues against their own family because God returned them to the land decades before and they now have restored vigor. On Yom Kippur will these same who turn against their brothers confess and repent or throw their arms around those who share a love for Hashem?
26. There are problems with some of them
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.27.08)
Not this special case , The Moscow "subbotniks" believethat jesus was a saint , they did'nt circumcise their boys [ ref : Wikipedia ] So consider them all Jewish ? They were converted many generations ago , some went to the Pale of settlement and intermarried with local Orthodox ones . So if those Jews accepted them , why should we refuse ? They have suffered the same way all Jews in those regions have , were also murdered , they have the right to make Alyah .
27. Talula , not only "some"
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.27.08)
There are many ex CIS Israelis who are working , who speak Hebrew , who served and love OUR country . That some are drinking is true , that i do not like the behaviour of some of them , is also true [ do you like the behaviour of everyone here ? ] . But i think that most of them only want to make an honest living here , and are here to be in a country were they have'nt to hide they are Jewish .
28. #27
Arieh ,   Kfar Saba   (11.27.08)
Charles. what talula wrote was clear you do'nt have to ad to things she say all of the time - ze matzben!!!
29. Arieh , it was'nt clear to you apparently
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.27.08)
what she wrote . Tilmad likro
30. #26 Wikipedia?
Talula ,   Israel   (11.27.08)
So that's it? That's what you base your knowledge on? Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia that can be accessed and edited by anyone? Oh dear. If I were you, I'd keep very very quiet now.
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