Try to put yourself in an Israeli's sandals. Every Arab hint of peaceful intention is overwhelmed by Arab hate, lies, terror attacks and efforts to destroy Israel. Every Israeli hint of peaceful intention is overwhelmed ... by the same thing. Arguments that Israel should withdraw from territory legally captured in defensive wars fall on deaf ears when no one, including apparently thoughtful, well-meaning people such as you, can honestly say that ceded territory will not be used for further attacks against Israel. If and when the preceding sentence is no longer true, peace will arrive. Until then, Israel would be foolish to weaken herself.

Mohammad - the right and ethical thing to do according to 242 is to return part of the land to Jordan. But that ignores the fact that Jews lived in Jerusalem continually for 2000 years until Jordan forced them out in '47. You also seem to forget that Israel is being asked (read forced) to give up land that it should have had since 1919 to a power that will not allow Jews to live there while being expected (read forced) to allow these same Arabs to live democratically in Israel. You need to figure out what it is you are really asking for, as 242 only requires Israel to work out a deal with Jordan and Egypt.

I'm sure that in the future when the Israeli Apartheid wall is torn down and removed from the Palestinian WB there will be celebrations worldwide. Like the German Berlin Wall the Israeli Apartheid Wall is a symbol of repression and division, cutting people off from family, friends, jobs and livelihoods. It is also a symbol of the Israeli illegal occupation of the Palestinian WB. The sooner it is removed from Palestinian land the sooner we can resign this monstrosity to the history books.

The Apartheid Wall is not built to make “Israel more secure”, if it was it would have been built on the Israeli side of the 1967 border. Rather the Apartheid Wall has been build to protect the illegal Israeli settlements in the Palestinian WB and illegally annex as much Palestinian land as possible. The term ‘Apartheid Wall’ is quite apt and accurate as this wall separates Palestinians from the illegal Jew-only settlements in the Palestinian WB. Likewise the ‘Apartheid Roads’ in the WB are another form of segregation. It is sad to see, in this day and age, Israel embrace the backward notions of apartheid and racial segregation with such vigor.

I'm sure that in the future when the Israeli Apartheid wall is torn down and removed from the Palestinian WB there will be celebrations worldwide. Like the German Berlin Wall the Israeli Apartheid Wall is a symbol of repression and division, cutting people off from family, friends, jobs and livelihoods. It is also a symbol of the Israeli illegal occupation of the Palestinian WB. The sooner it is removed from Palestinian land the sooner we can resign this monstrosity to the history books.

The Apartheid Wall is not built to make “Israel more secure”, if it was it would have been built on the Israeli side of the 1967 border. Rather the Apartheid Wall has been build to protect the illegal Israeli settlements in the Palestinian WB and illegally annex as much Palestinian land as possible. The term ‘Apartheid Wall’ is quite apt and accurate as this wall separates Palestinians from the illegal Jew-only settlements in the Palestinian WB. Likewise the ‘Apartheid Roads’ in the WB are another form of segregation. It is sad to see, in this day and age, Israel embrace the backward notions of apartheid and racial segregation with such vigor.

to #27: The west bank was a part of the British mandate of Palestine which included modern day Jordan and Israel including the west bank, and Jordan saved it at that time (for a while) from the Israeli occupation. In addition, Jordan annexed the west bank upon Arabs and Palestinians request at that time until the problem can be solved, the same thing happened when Eygpt controlled the Gaza strip. To #28: I think the situation in the west bank is far better than the situation in the Gaza strip, and its governed by liberal Palestinians who already have security arrangement with Israel, so what Israel is waiting for??!! To #31: You cannot call the occupied territory "legally caputered" as the act of "occupying" is illegal in itself. And as i mentioned before, Israel is not facing any security problems whatsoever from the west bank side. Israel signed two peace treaties already with Eygpt and Jordan and as far as i know there has been no big security issues. Let us use our common sense for once, people die in wars, not when they make peace!! to #36: I think the ideal and the most ethical solution is to have one country for two people! Why to seperate the two people in the first place! Look around you in the world you will find many countries that have multi ethnic groups live side by side with no problems at all! Finally i would like to say one thing. I believe that the Jews, more than any other people in the world should show more understanding and more sympathy towards the Palestinian people. Most of the Jews have lived in the diaspora for a very long time, and they understand what it means to be away from home or having "what you consider as a home" taken by others. millions of innocent Jews got killed and oppressed by the Nazis for no crime they commited except being Jews! aint these enough reasons for the Jews to show more understanding and more sympathy with their fellow humans, the Palestinians??!!

I have two issues in response to your comments. First, you claim that "between 1948 and 1967 Israel did not control the west bank, yet she was much more secure than she is now." Well, that is completely factually wrong. Back when Israel was young, we had terrorists ("Fadayoon") constantly infiltrating in from Jordan and killing our people. This stopped after 1967. Actually, since then the Jordanian border was the quietest border. Furthermore, prior to 1967 Israel had very slender shoulders, and could very easily be invaded this way. The capturing of the Jordan valley and the mountains around Jerusalem, allowed the IDF to set up strategic bases and observation posts, to enhance her security. Finally, while there was a time recently where we had many suicide bombers crossing from the West Bank to Israel - the security fence or wall stopped this. Therefore, we are much more secure today, and thus your statement is wrong. Second, with regards to your quote: "the barrier substantially deviates from the Green Line into the occupied territories... Therefore the barrier is an illegal attempt to annex Palestinian land" Indeed, I completely agree that the barrier substatially deviates from the green line. However, the second part of your quote is incorrect. The green line is nothing that the future Palestinian state is entitled for. It is merely the line where Jordan used to lie before the 1967 war. But, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO RELATION BETWEEN THE GREEN LINE, AND PALESTINIAN LAND. The fact that the late King Hussein "gave" this land to the Palestinians (in the 1980s, after he lost it) is completely insignificant and irrelevant, because it wasn't his to give. He already LOST these territories. It's like Bibi would say he "gives" the Palestinians some parts of Jordan. Anyway, back to the green line - not only does it not have an historical relevance to the future Palestinian state as I just described, but it also doesn't have any practical relevance either. You see, within the green line there are many areas where there is no Palestinian population at all, like the Dead Sea, Efrat, Har Adar, or Maale Edumim. Some of these parts should be annexed to Israel, in the final status, without uprooting any Palestinians from their homes. Conversely, outside the green line (is Israel "proper"), there are many Palestinian villages - Umm El Fahm, Tira, Tayibe, Baka El Gharbiye, etc. which clearly have more to in common with the future Palestinian state, than with Israel - and therefore most of them should be annexed to Palestine in the final status. So clearly, the green line has no real meaning in any respect. As for the security fence - it is not a permanent border. It was already moved several times in the orders of the Israeli Supreme Court. When the final status is reached, parts of it will be moved to accomodate the final border - not necessarily the green line.

Dear Matty, in case you forgot, the security barrier was built solely as a reaction against murderers sent by Arab thugs to kill Israeli men, women and children. And it works. Yes, some of it is on disputed land. Don't like it? Neither do Israelis. But they like living even more. In any event, it's temporary; one day it will come down. But first the attacks must stop. Your desire to see it removed without the Arab side first stopping its hatred, lies and attacks tells me all I need to know about you.

With a Palestinian State done , how will the border be marked and how will crossings from those who live in Israel who want to go into Palestine be made? THe logical option will be this wall, which roughly but not totally, follows the outline of the border. With amendments such a wall will ensure security for Israel and Palestine. It is after all a very small area. Most of the wall is infact a proper fence, less than 5% is concrete.

that is the answer

Thank you for your answers. I could not disagree with you more that after 1967 Israel became more secure. Let us remember that the war in 1973 was a direct consequence of the 1967 war. In addition, the "Fadayoon" continued and intensified their attacks on Israel after 1967 and the Palestinian factions got a lot of logistic and finacial support especially after "Al Karama"battle in 1968. Moreover, why to ignore the fact that the Palestinian continued attacking Israel from northern lebanon after they got expeled from Jordan in 1970. So if you count the number of Israelis who got killed or injured pre 1967 and post 1967 you will understand what i mean. Remember, numbers are more objective and more neutral than both of us. In relation to the green line, i agree with you that the green line is not a bible and there will be some changes and exchange of land between both sides. I think Abbas has made it clear that the Palestinians has no problem with the exchange of land as long as he gets the same land area of 5640 square kilometers.

They hate it when the Jews live because they want the Jews dead. The is a necessary component in the fight against terror. Terror was an Arab weapon and a negotiating point. Once it removed, the enemies have nothing. So, they hate it.

Mohammad -- you ask why can't Jews show more sympathy for Palestinians? Let me ask you: What do Palestinians want? Overwhelming evidence says that they want Israel destroyed, down to the last village. Let me ask you: If Jews show Palestinians sympathy and withdraw from every inch of 1967 land, what would happen? Peace, or war to finally annihilate a weakened Israel? History and current hatred, lies and attacks especially recent history (see: Gaza), teach us that the latter option is by far the likeliest answer. Please convince me I'm wrong.

Regarding Israel's security after 1967, the examples you gave me do not bolster your argument, as they did not involve Jordan and the West Bank, but rather, aggressions from other neighbors - Lebanon, Syria, Egypt. From 1967 to 1987, Palestinian aggressions from the West Bank greatly subsided, and could not be compared to the routine Fadayoon attacks on the newly formed Israel. The number 5640 square kilometers is not bible either. As I said earlier - the green line is merely former Jordanian territory, which has very little connection to the Palestinian people, and therefore its area is irrelevant. Personally I can't see how Israel could afford to give up so much land, especially since the Israeli-Arabs are likely to vehemently reject the possibility of uniting with their Palestinian brothers - after all, despite all their bitching against Israel - they know very well that they're much better off being part of Israel, then being part of Palestine. And therefore, the territory exchange I proposed earlier is not likely to be feasible, thus forcing Israel to give up other lands. And a 1-to-1 exchange of territories not involving returning Israeli-Arab towns is simply unacceptable. I bet that would still not be enough for the Palestinians, as most of them call for the liberation of ALL of historic Palestine. But even in the most optimistic scenario, In the final status Israel should give the Palestinians around 90 percent of the West Bank, and they should be content with it, or have nothing. It's their choice. As for another two points you have raised to other responders. First, after a country gets attacked by another country, and the aggressive country is defeated and consequently loses some territories, then it has absolutely no rights for these territories - they belong to the victor. You can't have it both ways. You can't attack someone, with a total guarantee that you won't lose anything if your attack fails. Life doesn't work this way. You took a risk, you lost, now live with the consequences. Israel gained the West Bank fairly. Now we desire to give most of it to the Palestinians, in order to have a just peace. Second, regarding the Jews understanding of Palestinian plight. It is extremely difficult to show understanding toward a people who are brainwashed from birth to hate us and to kill us, glorify death and martyrdom, and give out candies and sing when our civilians are murdered by their suicide bombers and rockets. This is barbarism, which even such forgiving people as the Jews cannot condone and understand. There is absolutely no comparison between the Jewish Holocaust caused by the Nazis, and the Palestinian suffering from Israel. Jews were loyal, patriotic citizens of their European countries. They recognized the right of the Germans, the French, the Czechs and every other nation in Europe, to have their own countries. And they never detonated themselves in European restaurants and buses... Golda Meir once said, that peace would be achieved, the moment Arabs would start loving their children more than they hate the Jews. We are still waiting.

Matty: The cause: A century of Arab rejection of Jewish human rights in Israel and waging an endless war of death and destruction on Jewish men, women and children and their Druze, Muslim and Christian allies. The effect: 99-100% of everything you complain about (ignoring for purposes of this discussion the almost laughably high propaganda content of your post).

In relation to Israel's security after 1967, i still believe that i gave you a very valid example, the attacks should not necessarily come from the west bank side ONLY. The resistance from the Palestinian perspective can be launched from anywhere. For instance, Hamas claims that they are firing rockets becasue Israel is still occupying the west bank, Israel is not occupying Gaza where Hamas exists though. One more thing, the wall cannot stop rockets if the Palestinians in the west bank decided to use them against Israel, so its not the wall that is protecting Israel, its the liberal Palestinian leadership in the west bank who has been controling security but ignored by Israel. Returning Arab-Israeli towns and the exchange of territories (Leiberman Idea) is illegal, racist, and unethical. Who gave you the right and Mr Leiberman to calissify people into loyals and traitors? Do you understand what the term (citizenship) means? Have you ever seen a country in the world that wants to expel 20% of its citizens? How do you expect the Israeli Arabs to feel toward Israel when the Jews have been treating them in a very racist and inhumane way. Racism in Israel between the Jews and the Arabs and between the Jews themselves is a big topic that we can talk about for hours. Your argument that the Arab are the ones who attacked Israel and therefore Israel gained the land fairly is pointless and self contradictory. First of all, the jews have been in the diaspora for thousands of years, Most of the jews who live in Israel today are Immigrants (outsiders) so saying that the Arabs are the ones who started the war is just illogical. and if Israel seized the land fairly as you suggested, so why Israel is in negotiations to return it??!! Telling me that its Israel's good will and Israel's desire is even funnier, have you even seen a country gives away parts of its land to the enemy just because they want to??!! When you mentioned the Palestinian hatered of the Israelis you said half a truth. You did not say that also the Jews hate the Arabs (just have a good look at the talkbacks). Once again, numbers are more neutral and more objective than both of us, all i am asking you is to have a good look at the numbers of how many Arabs got killed by Israel, and how many Israelis got killed by Arabs. Do you know what is the difference between objective (whats really out there) and subjective (what is in your head only). I respect you opinion and i understand that you have an emotional bias towards your country and your people, but i am also sure that you are smart enough to know that regardless of the names/terms you might use (terrorism for Palestinians and self defence for Israelis) thats is your own version of reality. The Palestinian interpretation of reality is totaly different than yours (calling themselves martyrs/ resistance and calling the Israelis terrorists/ occupying force...etc) so in order to be objective you have to look at the numbers without applying your personal biases on them. I ve read many of your talkbacks before and i respect you regardless of our disagreement over many issues. However, i am sure that you are fully aware that the current situation will not continue like that forever. I believe that its the best time for Israel to make peace now (when she is still superior), sooner or later the Arabs will strengthen themselves and the balance of powers in the region/world will change, so Israel should not keep on postponing and relying on Arab backwardness as this is shortsighted, selfish and does not do any good for the future generations of both people.

Marokko - 2.720 Kilometer to keep out Polisario, Korea- Korea , Botswana-Zimbabwe .Saudi arabia- Jemen. Saudi arabia-Irak. Cyprus- Cyprus. Thailand-Malaysia .Pakistan-Afganistan. USA-Mexico. Usbekistan- Tadschikistan. Kuiwait-Irak. Europ/Spain-( Ceuta Mellila,) to keep out the Africans.and you critics keep out you are immoral - f

It keeps your stupid neighbor out of your yard. It gives you comfort....and never keeps the muslims out. That is why the muslims stole all of the land hundreds of years ago......and still plan on stealing it back to this very day. The fence looked good while it lasted though. It does give graffiti artists a place to do their art work. Aren't you glad the earth has natural fences of oceans, mountain ranges, and swamps. Wait till the muslims start to demand that they be torn down in the United Nations. At least fish have a solid fence. To hell with the Jews though.

1. Since the security fence's erection, Israel is much safer than before, certainly safer than in its first years of suffering the fadayoon. Comparing the number of Israeli casualties from Palestinian terror, in ratio to Israel's population, would give you this conclusion. Actually, the only reason why a decrease in our safety was recorded in the 1990s, was because we let the Palestinians arm themselves, as part of the disasterous Oslo accords. 2. "Have you ever seen a country in the world that wants to expel 20% of its citizens?" Well, here's where you get it wrong. Nobody is expelling anybody!! The Israeli-Arabs would get to keep their lands and homes. Nobody asks them to leave. The only thing changing is the border, which would place them under Palestinian instead of Israeli rule. There is nothing "racist" or "inhumane" in this, actually since Israeli-Arabs have always viewed themselves as Palestinians, why not unite them with Palestine? All the linguistic acrobatics you and the Arabs could muster, would not change the fact that nothing is wrong or immoral in this decision, and it is actually very natural and legitimate. 3. "saying that the Arabs are the ones who started the war is just illogical" - no, it is actually an historic fact. When Jews came to Palestine, they wanted to live peacefully, side-by-side with the Arabs. They never started any war. Blame the UN for giving a small portion of Palestine to the Jews, not the Jews - they did not want to fight. It was the Arabs who did not accept the Division Plan, and started the aggressions, with the stated goal of "driving the Jews into the sea", but lost the war. And you know what? The inception of Israel in 1948 was hardly an excuse for a war by the Arabs, because even PRIOR to the massive immigrations of 1945-1948, the Arabs never accepted the Jews' right to live here peacefully - they constantly attacked the small Jewish community here, with no real justification other than blind hate, simply because Jews were different. 4. "You did not say that also the Jews hate the Arabs" - with all due respect, it is about a fifty-fold less than Arabs' hate toward Jews. We don't educate our young to hate Arabs. We don't teach them the glory of martyrdom and death. We don't give out candies when Palestinians civilians die. We don't have despicable childrens' TV shows like Farfur. We don't show disgusting anti-Arab cartoons in our newspapers. And when one stupid Jew commits a crime against Arabs, the entire establishment, as well as over 90% of the population, express their utter disgust, outrage and condemnation to this deed. However when a Palestinian suicide bomber kills Jews, the Rais calls him shaheed and visits his grieving family. We also don't hold parades in the streets, on a daily basis, where we burn Palestinian flags, or call "death to Palestine". We also don't slaughter innocent Palestinians, and then proudly show our blood-soaked hands to the camera. And finally, the Jewish tb's here are nothing in comparison to the anti-Israeli atmosphere you would find in Arab forums in the net. 5. "if Israel seized the land fairly as you suggested, so why Israel is in negotiations to return it??!!" - Because we simply want peace. Yes, we earned these territories in battle, but we don't want to rule another people. It is not due to our kindness, but our own considerations. Some settlers may think otherwise, but most Israelis realize this would be disasterous for our country. We don't want Palestinians becoming part of Israel. We want a clean separation from them - a Jewish state living peacefully alongside a Palestinian state.

1- You are still ignoring the fact that the security fence would not protect Israel from rockets attacks if Palestinians in the west bank decided to use them, so Israel is much safer now because of the liberal Palestinian leadership in the west bank, not because of the fence. 2- Once again, i am surprised that an educated person like yourself cannot understand what the legal term "citizenship" means! Israeli Arabs are CITIZENS of Israel, and in a country that has a well established and respected civil law, i doubt it that either you or Mr Leiberman can do anything about it. Ohh, and by the way, racial and ethnic segregation is the most basic form of racism and its unethical. 3- I am also surprised that you believe in the so called "historic fact". I have read the history of the region from the perspective of both sides (the Arabs and the Jews) and my conclusion is (there are no facts, only interpretations), and by the way, the only way to verify history is to go back in time and see what happened which is impossible, so i wont waste my time nor yours discussing history, we will simply get ourselves into a vicious circle. 4- " with all due respect, it is about a fifty-fold less than Arabs' hate toward Jews" sorry mate but your statement is simply unprovable and there is no way to know who hates the other more. In addition, most of the things that you have mentioned you got it from the news! Dont you know that what we watch in the news is the infrequent and abnormal! Have you asked yourself why they dont include car accidents in the news for instance??!! well, simply because it happens so oftern and very frequently so it became NORMAL. Trust me Tahl, if you believe that what you see in the news is the common and everyday activity you are misleading yourself and insluting your intelligence. 5- " Because we simply want peace. Yes, we earned these territories in battle, but we don't want to rule another people" I will not claim that i am a mind reader or know people's intentions as you did, but from my observations i think Israel consider Arabs as a demographical threat more than anything else. As you know Arabs breed like rabbits and the Jews want to keep Israel as a Jewish state, so Israel's dicision to give some land to the Palestinians has nothing to do with Israel's desire to live in peace, I guess.

Matty, using charged words such as colonize, apartheid, etc. are no substitute for the facts. The facts are that Jews are the Native Americans of the Land of Israel, never fully left it, the dispossessed among them always returned to it despite being illegally ethnically cleansed by Romans and later by Muslims, and very publicly maintained their claim on it. The facts are that Arabs controlled it for less time than the Jews (and then only by aggressive conquest), neglected it where they did have a presence and stomped on the religious rights of others. It was so desolate that in the 1800s travelers described going for miles and miles without seeing a sign of a living soul. The Jews of Israel - most whom are descended from those who suffered for generations under Arab Muslim oppression - have stood up and reclaimed their natural right to sovereignty in their homeland. They have made the desert bloom. One cannot "colonize" one's own homeland. Your claim of "ethnic cleansing" by Jews is laughable. Why is Israel's population nearly 20% Arab, yet no Jews live in any territory governed by Palestinians, Saudis, Lebanese, Jordanians, etc.? Why are those few Jews remaining in other Arab-ruled lands fleeing for, or in fear of, their lives (Yemen, Syria, Iraq)?

The wall was built to stop the sick disgusting Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. And it is very effective. It has also cut down on car theft-an unintended but welcome consequence.

Please address the issue of JORDAN's illegal occupation of the West Bank from 1948-1967. Please address the eviction of all Jewish residents of the Jewish Quarter, please address the Jordanian sniper fire on the Jews of Jerusalem during the entire Jordanian occupation. Please address the fact that Jordan never lived up to its obligations to allow Israelis free access to Mt. Scopus. (We lost a university campus and hospital there but since we are Jews we built new ones!) Please address the fact that Jordan did not let one single Jew pray at the Western Wall while Muslims pray on the Temple Mount today. I eagerly await your comments.

after all.. Israelis are used to having someone else doing their dirty work.

Thank you for your questions. Unfortunatly i am not going to answer any of them for two main reasons: 1- I dont identify myself as Jordanian. 2- Your questions are not related to the topic Cheers