And by the way: if Dan Calic tries to legitimate the zionist idea with a kind of pseudo-regligious magic of numbers from the bible - as he does in the end of his article - he is indeed nearer to Saudi ideology than to Greek or Mexican ...

And, the writer proved the point. I particularly like his 'mystical' views on the 'coincidence' of numbers at the end of his article. When you cannot make a logical coherent assertion based on facts, then fall back on religion or ideology. Because religion is not fact-based, ir is 'faith-based'. And the author's assertion is that if you believe hard enough, and clap you hands for Tinkerbelle, then it is true. Where do you find these people?

Usually from places that promote truth and accuracy in reporting.

Those two nations were built upon the dispossession of indigenous inhabitants. Why doesn't anyone protest the USA & Canada? By the way, the indigenous inhabitants of the Middle East are the Jews.

Hi Mike, I agree with you that religion and ideology is the last refuge of scoundrels. And certainly any ideas founded in religious beliefs are, by definition, faith-based and therefore not exclusively reliant on reason and objectivity, But what about historical and archaeological hard evidence? What about the linguistic connection to an exclusively middle-eastern language? These and other facts are what tie the Jewish people to Israel. And much of jewish scripture, litargy and, indeed, poetry and song have been employed to pass on these ties to their historical connection. Another fact, as mentioned in this article, it was the Britsh and the UN who agreed to establish a Jewish state in Palestine, and it was they who revoked it, and it is continuing to be revoked. If you want to truly point fingers at scoundrels of religious mysticism, you should look to those individuals who wish to blow up, kill, maim, kidnap, etc Jews and non-muslims in the name of god and religion, in order to preserve the "muslim purity" of the middle east.

descended from immigrants to the land from the surrounding regions attracted by the jobs working for both the Jews and the British. If you are still able to see the identifying headscarves of the older men in the villages you will see where they came from, Syria, Iraq etc. The war is a religious war, and a racial war, backed up by the might of oil and the contempt for Jewish sovereignty.

teeth. Hitting a truth nerve will do that, in a body of lies. Enjoy matti delusional. ps jews can be both liberal and religious zionists.

It will outlive the Arab belligenrence against Jews, sorry Zionists.

70 percent of Israel is still desert! Don't kid yourself - the Arabs plotted to dispossess one million Jewish citizens and destroy Israel even beforethere had been a single Arab refugee

informative as well. Can you give the Reader a reference or two as to what distinguishes secular and religious Zionism and what distinguishes Zionism from post-Zionism? As to nobody harbouring fault with the traditional Zionist enterprise in Israel proper, I think you need to have the misty clouds dispelled from your eyes (although I wish you were right). Just start with our War of Independence right through to Islamic justification of terror attacks and to the Hamas Charter which explicitly states that Islam won't rest until the nation of Israel is obliterated. Kindly respond.

Mikesailor posted a comment in which he derided the importance of religion in terms of politics and nation building. In fact, all great and powerful countries depend on founding myths to establish a reason for the collective to exist and survive throughout time. Of course, for Jews, the myths (stories written in the Torah and then retold) are what makes our own collective association so strong. Most of the myths have a factual basis but even if they didn't, as long as they are accepted, they comp[rise the glue upon which we associate as a people. We also have many myths, stories and factual events which continue to bind us together. I might mention Rabbi Lowe in 16th century Prague and the creation of the Golem as a more modern illustration and, of course, nearer to us, the Holocaust and our eventual return from exile. Eli Wiesel is excellent at retelling these stories and making us aware of their meanings. The same is true of every great people such as the Chinese, the Persians and the Greeks. I am very familiar with the Greek influence which, as far as I'm concerned, remains alive to this day. I can tell you all that each of the Native Indian people in North America have myths and languages of their own and these myths help define who they are, how they think and how they function. Without myths, no survival. As far as i can tell, the Islamic myth of the Prophet's ascension to heaven in a flaming chariot from Jerusalem is one of their (Muslims) founding beliefs. The only founding belief I have managed to witness with respect to the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Islamic, is the Naqba, the story of the exile of a people and (hoped for) return. Whether there are other founding myths or not is something I am not aware of although nothing else has come to awareness in my studies. On the other hand, I do not read Arabic and I am not particularly familiar with mideastern Palestinians so I am open to learn from those who are more familiar and more knowledgeable. Perhaps the Naqba is a powerful enough myth to weld a disparate group of people together. By disparate, let's acknowledge that Palestinians came into the region from many different ethnic origins including Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Yemen, Greece and Turkey, etc. At present, they are divided by extended family loyalties where families are very powerful units and may constitute 20,000 members or more. I can only relate to this in a manner of speaking: In the 19th and 20th century of Europe, nation-states were welded together out of independent regions: Think France, Italy and Germany. Yugoslavia was also welded together by a powerful leader, Tito, but once he died, the country fractured back into its diassembled parts, i.e., Serbia, Croatia and Montenegro. In conclusion, I know that the rebirth of Israel is the result of an extraordinarily powerful group of myths and events without which it could never have become reborn. I do not know, however, whether a nation called Palestine can be founded based in part on its founding myths. I hope that posters will add to this post so that we can dialogue on the subject and, in that way, educate ourselves. I also hope that Mikesailor's dreadfully ignorant post will now be dismissed.

True, the Jews did buy land before Israel was declared, about 7% of the total. Every historical source confirms this figure. But I say to you and to Sarah B, if you cannot understand the inherent injustice in giving away more than half the land to a minority group, then there's nothing for me to discuss with you. What if the UN tomorrow unanimously votes to give 55% of the land between the Mediterranean and the river to the Palestinians, who are a minority at present? Would you accept?

On the other hand we have the Arabs, who lived in scattered towns and villages, without a unifying national identity, who saw themselves part of the large Arab nation that spread all over the middle east, who came to this land, at least partly, from neighboring countries, and who see how these new people - the jews, start to take over the land. Not by dispossessing the Arabs, but by all of a sudden building all these villages, and kibbuzim and towns and with such numbers that when the Brits left, the land had to be split between them (the Arabs) and the jews. Now how are we going to solve this problem? Do the Arabs really have such a strong moral basis to say - this whole land belongs to us? Taking into account that if they hadn't started a war they could have still be living in their homes but under Jewish rule in the part of the land that was given to the jews, I don't see why their desire to have the whole country to themselves is more legitimate than the jews' desire to have a homeland on part of this land. What can I say, it's a bummer for the Arabs that they can't have the whole cake to themselves. But look at how scarcely populated Jordan is compared to Israel which is one of the most dense countries in the world, to get an idea who is more of a need of a country - the jews or the Palestinians. The bottom line is, we all should realize that there's some justice on the other side. The unwillingness of the Arabs to except the legitimacy of a jewish state on part of this land caused us thousands of lives, and we are willing to give up dreams about territories that should be given to the Arabs. I assure you, if Israelis were promised to get real peace they would have given the Golan, the west bank and east Jerusalem tomorrow. The problem is that on the Arab side there are enough people who won't stop entertaining themselves with the thought that at some point they could destroy Israel and have the land all to themselves. I think if the Arabs stopped teaching their children the false narrative I mentioned and try and see our point of view, and realize that the existence of a jewish state on part of this land is not such a great injustice, then we could move forward and have peace at last.

and their archaic attitudes under Islam. So is religion a refuge of scoundrels to you....or just Judaism?

Mexico doesn't have streets that are for catholics and catholics only and mexico is not robbing people of their land for the catholics of mexico or from around the world like israel does for Jews.

but unfortunately I don't have strength to re-write it. I did write on how I do understand the Palestinians' point of view to some extent. oh well... we're not going to solve this here anyway...

In Genesis, God created Man, in his image, and said he was pleased with his creation. Even when Cain slew abel, God did not put him to death but he was merely banished to the land of Nod. This myth is central to all three religions,: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Yet, as time passes, a curious thing arises. Jews become 'Chosen' and are instructed to kill fellow humans who are not Jews and take their lands; Christianity became militant and told to save the world by the sword (although this is a direct contradiction of Jesus' message); and Muslims were instructed to 'forcibly convert' those who did not believe that the Koran was the 'only' path to Allah. Now we are in the 21st century, a new era of global communication has arisen, and the old myths and fantasies underlying religous belief are outmoded. Now, the new ethos presumes a commmon humanity. That actions in contravention of this new ethos should be condemned because we are 'all in the same boat' i.e. the planet Earth and we must all learn to live together. Therefore, the issue of justice arises and for that purpose, the only true ethos is the Golden Rule: 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. Unfortunately, too many wish to rely upon the old ethos of dividing humanity into separate discrete groupings. It is easier, they claim, and besides, it's tradition. Our myths make us more comfortable and we will violently oppose all those who espouse a different path. We love our myths, even though they are myths, because we have a talismanic fath that any actions we commit are sanctioned by our God or our ideology. Frankly, that way, of 'faith-based' believing in ethnic or religious groups being or having 'superior' rights over common humanity is both insane and truly the last refuge of scoundrels and the morally degenerate.

There no such thing Jewish people, there is Jewish religion. Zionism tried to make from the Jewish religion a Jewish nation based on biblical myths. Don’t know what is the connection between a Jews from Poland , Russia and one from Ethiopia or Yemen. Blood? DNA ?? Zionism was banned form the UN till lately as racist movement and only with the pressure from US backed by Jewish lobbies for well known reason was legitimized again .In fact the core of Zionism ideology was taken from Nazism (about race superiority and God chosen people ,)and from communism ,(the kibbutzim movement at the early days of the State of Israel establishment ) . Author chose the worst place (and by the way fully supported by the American) Saudi Arabia to compare with, which is far from objective .Saudi discriminate other muslim who do not belong to the Wahhabist ultra fundamentalist sect. Talking about Christian or Jews discrimination in Saudi Arabia is in not in context here nothing to compare. By the way the only places where Jews lived in peace in this Earth thought out the history was among Arabs .Jew suffered from repeated pogrom since Faraon time in different parts of the world. Spain, Europe , Russia ,Germany . During WWII Arabs in North African countries helped Jews and hided them from Nazi German. This never comes to public because it does not serve the Zionist propaganda. At the end if Jews lived on the Middle East 4000 years ago, that do not give them the right on the land they lost at that time .Lets reshape the whole world and go back to the 4000 yeas old history map, then what ?lot of today countries has not legitimate right to exist. This article is full of silly thought and ideas.

Jews have a dual identity. There is the land of Israel -- i.e., the physical plant -- and the people Israel -- i.e., the descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob (whom G-d renamed Israel). You can put whatever spin you want on it, but those are facts that are accepted by the vast majority of Jews and Christians on this planet. As long as you don't mind putting your incredible ignorance on display time and again, I'll keep correcting you. You're too dense to know when to be embarrassed. Right about now, George, you should be mightily embarrassed at your appalling ignorance of all things relevant to the Middle Eastern conflict.

re collectives and myths. As you address yourself from Canada, you can research this by looking towards the Native people of Canada. The Jewish "myth", the biblical stories of a people and subsequent events have welded us into a mighty collective which have (quite remarkably) withstood the pressures of extinction for several thousands of years now. Even Canada lives by myth. Listen to our national anthemn: "O Canada, so glorious and free ..." before the hockey games on television. The national aspirations of a people. Try to understand this before lecturing Jewish posters on Ynet who are aware of their history when you really have very faint knowledge. Hope this helps to open up your mind, Gorge.

appealing argument due to global concerns about our environment and the speed and accuracy of modern communication devices. Agreeing with you that we must act as a global network as our (human beings) very survival is at risk, you make a major mistake in your analysis: All principles, purposes, needs and concerns of a collective and/or an individual comes wrapped in a culture. A culture defines limits, supports and functions and also colours how all the former (principles, purposes, etc.) will and can be played out in the world. In other words, its not enough to just invoke the basic religious principle of justice: "Do unto others ..." I do appreciate what you are getting at, however. It just isn't that simple. You would understand that were you to live for a while in a radically different culture than the American one. But I appreciate your input here and at one level it does seem to make immense sense.

Your comment of Saudi is futile; the comparison is ludacris. The Saudi Kingdom is corrupt and sure enough racist; a disgrace to Arabs. That much I agree with you. However set aside your anti-arab rhetoric when you speak of the apartheid as being comparable to the kingdom's standards. You must remember that the land of Israel/Palestine (whichever euphamism you use) belonged to an Arab majority, an overwhelming arab majority. As it stands currently, that once majority and now the generations before them LIVE under occupation and under the sheer humiliation of the settlers that surround them (illegally I must add). This is a simple fact that you will always resist due to your hostile views of muslims and arabs. You feel that you are superior and you will never accept the fact that what is being done to Palestinains is utterly unjust. Saudi Arabia on the other hand, although unjust and unbelievably corrupt, has nothing whatsoever to do with apartheid. There are no Jews that reside, yes you are correct, and that is unfortunate and dispicable as well (we're not arguing that). However given the choice, would you rather be denied entry into a country (Saudi Arabia) or live in hell under occupation (Israel)? I think anyone would choose the first choice and reject the later.

Culture is created by man. It is the synthesie of geography and history creating a common modell by which societies organize themselves. That is all it is. Period. Yet such models are not static, unless we embrace them overmuch. With every new experience, with every new fact learned, individuals, if they are not faith-based, change their inner models of 'how the world works'. The problem you have is an inability to change your model by relying upon the crutch of 'culture' to define your intellectual parameters. Its a common failing but it is also cowardice. I have lived in other countries and cultures. I have noticed that those who attempt to examine reality without relying on the filter of either religion or ideology do sometimes feel like outsiders, not reallly members of the tribe. But such feeling of 'not belonging' also leads to self-liberation. The cognitive dissonance engendered by actually accepting the conformist view as controlling over your own experiences and knowledge, is disconcerting. I can believe what others believe as part of the tribe, or I can accept parts, reject parts, and realize that cullture and its trappings of religion and ideologyy are man- made constructs, for better or worse. When you realize that, you have a choiice. To rely on your own beliefs or follow the herd. That is your choice. Yet, do not complain when someone points out the logical inconsistencies of your position. For by blindly following the path of least resistance, you deserve all the criticism. And you will become angry because you know that such criticiism is well-founded.

saved for me the time to answer you .for a Jewish Taliban like you ,exactly the religion and ideology are the last refuges of scoundrels. As he said “religion is not fact-based, is 'faith-based'."if you believe hard enough, and clap you hands for Tinkerbelle, then it is true. Don't know how really feel embarrassed Your thoughts can be your invisible prison. Challenge your beliefs, change your thoughts, and free your world.

Robert as you know ,any newcomer to Canada after just 3 years he can become Canadian citizen .There no legal power can root him out from here and the Government of Canada is obligated to defend him all over the Globe. This what makes this country so attractive and respectable. You ,the Israeli are rooting up ,killing ,discriminating and demolishing houses of poor Palestinian that have been living on that land for hundred of years to fulfill your myth and biblical fairy tale about the God promised land. What if turn out God doesn’t exist?

who are you to say they deserve ????????god say they do not deserve it

and if you do not feel well you would sell zion with two piaster ..............