Ofer Winter looked at the images from Jerusalem and was filled with anger. It was Tuesday, in the midst of a massive procession in support of ultra-Orthodox draft dodgers who had been released from military prison. After three years of war on multiple fronts that claimed the lives of nearly 1,000 soldiers, chants of “IDF — enemy army” could be heard from the crowd. Ministers in the self-described “full-on right-wing” government, who had tried to advance legislation allowing exemptions from military service, heard the
“I was appalled by that event,” the chairman of the Amcha Yisrael party said in an interview with ynet and Yedioth Ahronoth. “It doesn’t represent ultra-Orthodox society, but it’s what makes the headlines and it’s the narrative dominating the public discourse. But you know what troubles me more? The government’s silence. Not a single coalition party condemned the incident. I think that’s terrible and it can’t continue this way.”
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Ofer Winter: 'It’s time for the ultra-Orthodox to become a significant part of the IDF'
(Photo: Shalev Shalom)
And he has a clear message for the ultra-Orthodox public.
“God willing, when I’m defense minister, this situation will change,” retired Brig. Gen. Winter pledged. “It’s time for the ultra-Orthodox to become a significant part of the IDF. I previously established military companies for ultra-Orthodox soldiers, and I’m telling you it can be done. We’ll establish companies suited to the ultra-Orthodox community. Dozens of them. And it’s also time for those who serve to receive more. Today, the people getting more are the ones who don’t serve. As defense minister, I intend to double the salaries of our combat soldiers.”
Winter sees drafting ultra-Orthodox men into the IDF as his life’s mission.
“If we fail to significantly integrate ultra-Orthodox recruits into the military, I will have failed,” he said of a challenge that many capable people before him have tried to tackle. “I know the system. I also know the Defense Ministry. I served under four defense ministers. I fought the system when I was a senior officer who rejected the prevailing conception. I can do it.”
Winter believes he can succeed where all his predecessors failed. The controversy surrounding the ultra-Orthodox draft is, in his view, a symptom of the way the entire country is being run.
“Decisions aren’t made. There is no decisive action. To me, the most important word is ‘decisiveness.’ We’re still living under the same conception. On October 7, I was certain that conception was finished. And I’ll tell you something: Even the enemies around us were alarmed and thought we had completely lost our minds. They understood that the State of Israel was going back to basics, back to its foundations — that anyone who rises up against it will face its full force.
Winter is confident he can succeed where all his predecessors have failed. Signs reading 'We will die rather than enlist' at an ultra-Orthodox protest
(Photo: Alex Kolomoisky)
“But what’s happening now is that we’re still trapped in that conception. The government is trapped in it and the opposition remains completely trapped in it. There’s no decisive outcome in Gaza and no decisive outcome in Lebanon. There’s no decisive action against crime or protection racketeering. And ministers shout as though they’re sitting in the stands instead of being among the people making decisions in the Cabinet.”
Let’s say you win six to eight seats. How will you change that reality?
“That may be why they’re afraid of us. Anyone who knows me personally knows I’m here for Sigal from Be’eri, for the soldiers who served with me and for the reservists who keep getting called up again and again. I’m not looking for a job and I’m not looking for budgets. We came to change things and make an impact. We’ll change the State of Israel’s security doctrine and ensure that there is voluntary migration from Gaza. I understand that gives the coalition a headache, but we’ll make sure it happens.”
Wherever Winter looks, he says, he sees restraint, weakness and a failure to achieve decisive results.
“We didn’t defeat Hamas in Gaza because, contrary to the prevailing conception, we have to understand that our soldiers come before enemy civilians. As far as I’m concerned, we should destroy half of Rafah for the sake of one soldier. I don’t care what anyone thinks. Anyone listening to me should take what I’m saying seriously.”
But that is precisely the ammunition being used in the “genocide” campaign against Israel around the world.
“We’re fighting in Gaza in an unintelligent way. The enemy in Gaza knew it couldn’t take on the IDF. So what did it do? It designed the entire fight around the urban environment to lure you into a trap so it could shout ‘genocide.’ Because the enemy knows that it isn’t the one that will stop you — the world will. And the world succeeded in stopping us. Listen to Netanyahu explaining to the world that we don’t kill civilians and that we take them into consideration. We fell into their trap.”
Winter: 'Netanyahu explains to the world that we don’t kill civilians in Gaza — we fell into their trap'
(Photo: AP Photo/Fatima Shbair)
Shouting from the stands
Despite his criticism of government policy, Winter again reiterated his commitment that after the election his party will recommend Netanyahu for prime minister.
“We’re on the right, and to implement right-wing policies we have to be part of a right-wing government, period,” he explained. “We have no choice. Defeating the enemy and facilitating voluntary emigration from Gaza can only be achieved under a right-wing government. But we don’t want the same composition as the current government. The current government’s makeup is very bad for Israel. Another government like this must not be formed.”
After October 7, before you entered politics, you said Netanyahu should resign immediately and go home. How do you reconcile that contradiction?
“Let’s be precise about what I said. I said that if I were prime minister, I would resign. That’s my conception of responsibility. No one can take away Netanyahu’s responsibility for October 7. Immediately after we launched our party, so there would be no confusion, I said: ‘Friends, we’re on the right, and the leader of the right-wing camp is Benjamin Netanyahu. Therefore, we will recommend Netanyahu for prime minister.’”
So as far as you’re concerned, there’s no problem with him continuing to serve as prime minister.
“I don’t care about the individual. I care about how I implement the policy. And I’ll say it again: I don’t want to see the same government again. I would like to see a broad right-wing government and I’d like people to stop boycotting one another.”
Could Avigdor Liberman be a partner in a broad right-wing government?
“I definitely think he could be a partner.”
If Liberman says he is prepared to end his boycott of Netanyahu to prevent another election but demands a rotation agreement, would Netanyahu have to accept that demand?
“I’m not going to determine an arrangement between Liberman and Netanyahu. Maybe I can help bridge the differences between them, but I can’t know what will happen after the election. I would genuinely be happy if Liberman stopped shouting from the stands, left the wrong friends he chose and joined Netanyahu.”
Winter on Netanyahu: 'No one can absolve him of responsibility for Oct. 7'
(Photo: AP Photo/Seth Wenig)
Netanyahu is going after you in the most blatant way possible, and you’re responding with Hanna Bavli-style politeness.
“Anyone who has watched us in recent months doesn’t think I’m a pushover.”
If Netanyahu is going after you and linking you to Eisenkot and Liberman while you say he is your candidate for prime minister, some people will say you’re a pushover.
“That’s right, there’s a campaign being waged against us. But we’re hitting back. I attack in return and explain that everyone is trapped in the same conception. They say we’re bringing down the right, that we’re wasting votes. You know what’s really bringing down the right? The performance of this government over the past three years. And what’s bringing down the right is Likud’s decision to crush Amcha Yisrael. Guys, you’ve got it wrong. I’m not the enemy. It frustrates me that they can’t understand the magnitude of this moment. They don’t understand that they’re shooting themselves in the foot. At the same time, I won’t be deterred, I won’t bow down and I won’t surrender. I’m not afraid. We don’t work for Netanyahu. We will demand that he defeat the enemy and integrate the ultra-Orthodox into the IDF. I intend to be an independent defense minister.”
Can you envision joining a government that is not headed by Netanyahu?
“I don’t know what will happen in life. Maybe if Netanyahu retires. But I told you, I’m on the right. I’m not confused about that for a moment.”
And he certainly is not. A government with Bennett, Liberman and Eisenkot?
“It won’t happen,” he immediately cut in.
Indeed, every attempt to present him with scenarios for forming a government with the change bloc is rejected before he even hears the end of the question. Winter knows full well that any statement or hint about cooperating with Bennett or Liberman will lead the current government to brand him as “left-wing.”
Likud claims you already have a deal with Liberman. They published a quote from Yoseph Haddad saying that “Liberman could be a suitable partner.”
“They didn’t take a quote. They cut up a video. And I find that despicable, OK? It would be like cutting up what I just said to you. I’d be happy for Liberman to join a broad right-wing government, and then maybe Goldknopf wouldn’t be the 61st vote.”
Would you prefer a government with Liberman rather than the ultra-Orthodox parties?
“Not all the ultra-Orthodox parties, but those that undermine the Torah community — yes, I have a problem with them. And I’ll do everything I can to ensure that we don’t end up with the same composition of government.”
Could you say Bennett is a more natural partner for you than the ultra-Orthodox parties?
“I don’t know which Bennett we’re talking about. If Bennett is a right-winger, then he should kindly stop boycotting a right-wing government headed by Netanyahu and join the government as a political force. But if he’s part of the so-called change bloc, the parties seeking an alternative to Netanyahu, he can stay there.”
Winter: 'I intend to be an independent defense minister'
((Photo: Ido Erez)
Could you trust Gadi Eisenkot as prime minister?
“No, no, no. His outlook is fundamentally different from mine. I also have criticism of Netanyahu’s outlook, but if we’re the 61st vote, we’ll dictate policy.”
And what about Eisenkot as a partner in the government?
“I think he could be an excellent culture minister. Sports minister. Seriously. I respect him as a person.”
If, shortly before the election, you see that you aren’t crossing the electoral threshold or are hovering around it, would you withdraw?
“Not only are we crossing the threshold, we’re clearing it by a wide margin. I have no hesitation whatsoever on that issue. We set out for battle and we’ll fight to the end. I understand that the polling story is also part of the campaign because nobody wants us entering the arena. We cross the threshold everywhere except with one pollster on a right-wing channel,” he said, referring to Shlomo Filber of Channel 14. “I’m out in the field. I walk the streets and I can feel the mood. People want something new. Hundreds of people. They want Amcha Yisrael.”
Gaza Resettlement? 'I’m a Student of Ben-Gurion'
Winter is equally unequivocal about establishing a commission of inquiry into the events of October 7 — just without calling it a “state commission of inquiry,” the term for Israel’s highest-level independent investigative commission.
“We will demand the immediate establishment of a commission of inquiry from the moment we take office,” he pledged. “It’s a national disgrace that no commission of inquiry has been established here.”
Winter on Eisenkot: 'He could be an excellent culture minister'
(Photo: AP Photo/Ariel Schalit)
Is Netanyahu running away from a commission of inquiry?
“I’ll tell you more than that: Both the coalition and the opposition have an interest in preventing a commission of inquiry from being established. You know why? Because there are people in both camps who were part of what happened.”
Excuse me, but the opposition pushed for a state commission of inquiry from the very beginning.
“So they’re demanding a state commission of inquiry and Netanyahu is demanding a national commission of inquiry. Three years have passed and no commission of inquiry has been established. Because they don’t want one.”
Do you support renewing Jewish settlement in the Gaza Strip?
“Yes. I do.”
And you are calling for encouraging Gaza residents to emigrate. What would you say to someone who tells you that violates international law?
“I believe 80% of Gazans want to leav. We’re the ones preventing them. The only and fastest way to end this war is to allow them to emigrate voluntarily and open the gates. On this issue, I’m a student of Ben-Gurion. I wish we lived today according to the outlook that prevailed here when the state was founded. He refused to allow the Arabs of Jaffa to return after the war. He said they had to be prevented from returning. Ben-Gurion told someone who questioned him: ‘It wasn’t Tel Aviv that started the war against Jaffa; Jaffa started the war against Tel Aviv.’ And after they lost, they had to pay the price. That’s deterrence.”
Migration is seen as a messianic and unrealistic policy.
“I gave you the Ben-Gurion example. I’m his student when it comes to messianism, but pragmatic messianism. And the migration plan is as pragmatic as it gets. As defense minister, I will demand to head the migration directorate. I will lead it, I will steer it and I intend to make it happen. I won’t give in to this government or to its excuses.”